Iraq: Refugees

Lord Fowler: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What action they are taking to help refugees from the conflict in Iraq.

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, we remain very concerned about the humanitarian situation of an estimated 2 million refugees in neighbouring countries and 2.2 million internally displaced people. We continue to work on improving security, which is the main cause of displacement and which also restricts access to assistance that could be provided by NGOs. In addition, we have targeted £15 million in 2007 and £132 million since 2003 directly to assist displaced Iraqis.

Lord Fowler: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I return to a Question I first raised in this House in April 2007: how many Iraqis who have been employed by the British as interpreters have now been resettled here? The local guidance being issued warns that places are limited and that the process may take until the summer of 2009. Is that the right priority to give to Iraqis who may be in danger of reprisal for no other reason than that they have helped this country?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, on behalf of my department and all the others, I express our gratitude to locally employed staff, whose vital contribution has assisted us and the Government of Iraq. As noble Lords are aware, two schemes were announced in October last year by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and explained to this House by my noble friend Lady Ashton. The gateway refugee settlement scheme has already started. We have received 910 applications, of which 404 were rejected for showing no visible connection to British work. Ninety have been passed on to the Home Office, and 24 have been passed altogether. We estimate that the target cap of 600 is manageable, particularly because new forecasts show that there was a spike in December suggesting that the number will be adequate and manageable.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, there must be many Iraqi refugees in the UK who are here with exceptional leave to remain or other, more indeterminate, status. Is it the Government's view that many will now return voluntarily? If not, how many have actually been forced to return? Is it the Government's view that all parts of Iraq are now sufficiently secure for refugees to return, save in exceptional circumstances?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, we have a clear policy on asylum seekers. The numbers of applications from Iraq have remained relatively stable. We assess them on individual merit, according to the refugee convention and the European Convention on Human Rights. To give your Lordships a sense of the estimates of the people accepted and returned, for the first nine months of 2007 we had 1,105 applicants. One hundred and five were granted refugee status, 15 humanitarian protection and 70 discretionary leave. The rest have returned or will be returning. We make the assessments about return individually, to ensure that individuals are protected. Return is also based on our assessment, and on that of others, of areas that are safe, so that asylum seekers are returned only to such areas.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, in view of the fact that we are jointly responsible, with the United States, for the disastrous situation in which these 4.2 million people are displaced from their homes, does not the noble Baroness agree that we should cough up a larger proportion of the UNHCR's appeal for 2008 than the measly 4 per cent we gave in 2007? Bearing in mind that only one in five of the 21,000 people whom the UNHCR put up for resettlement in 2007 were accommodated, and that another 20,000 are coming down the track this year, will the Government get together with our partners and make sure that the offers that we jointly make with them match the size of the need?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, I understand that the funds targeted appear disproportionately small, given the scale of the refugee situation, but I do not think that that takes into proper account the factors in Iraq. It is very difficult to identify Iraqi displaced people within the neighbouring countries and within Iraq because they get absorbed into the host community and are very hard to identify. Only 3 per cent of refugees and IDPs live in camps. As a result, we cannot provide assistance in the targeted way that the noble Lord is suggesting. The best way to provide assistance is to the whole community into which the IDPs and the refugees have been absorbed. We therefore think that the issue is about the reconstruction of the system in Iraq for basic services. Funding is therefore not a problem— there has been more than $30 billion of oil revenue in the past year, and less than a quarter of its capital budget was used. The issue is capacity. Of the £680 million that we have disbursed in reconstruction, our efforts go towards creating the capacity of the Iraq Government to provide services.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, following the sums of money mentioned by the Minister, what support or money is DfID offering to neighbouring states such as Syria and Jordan to assist with the Iraqi refugees?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, we provide our funding directly through UNHCR and ICRC because we believe that that is the best way to target refugees. However, we also provide assistance through the EC—for example, most recently, €30 million was provided for health systems in Syria.

The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, given the number of persecuted Christians who have left the country and are now in Syria, will the Minister confirm that the Government are making every effort to press on the Iraqi Government the necessity of preserving the right of Christians to worship and exist in Iraq?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, I agree that Christians and other minorities are a particular target of sectarian groups. They make up a disproportionately large number of refugees, and we continue to work with the Iraqi Government and neighbouring countries to ensure that they are allowed their rights.

Lord Acton: My Lords, my noble friend mentioned the sum of £15 million for 2007 for 2 million refugees and 2.2 million internally displaced people. If my maths are correct, that works out at just under £4 a head. Can we look to a rather more generous settlement than £4 a head for refugees and internally displaced people in 2008?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, I believe that we can. However, I shall go back to my overlong answer, for which I apologise. The issue is to ensure that the host communities have access to services, not just the internally displaced people who have been absorbed into them. Therefore, our overall reconstruction funding of £680 million must be included.

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, does the Minister agree that in the light of our shared responsibility for what has happened in Iraq, for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people and for others who feel themselves in danger all the time, there really has to be a more generous response? Does she accept that if I were currently living in Afghanistan and asked to support or work with the British forces there, I would give very careful thought even to considering that, given my feelings about how those in Iraq had been treated?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, in response to that, we have announced a package of assistance for former and current employees, including a direct entry scheme for all current employees and a financial package of assistance. It is interesting to note that the latter appears to be more attractive than entry into the UK for current employees.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, one major concern about the treatment of refugees and displaced people seems to be the lack of a co-ordinated approach from the United Nations, the operation coming partly out of Baghdad and partly out of Jordan. Is the United Kingdom in any position to help improve co-ordination of the humanitarian effort and, if so, what can we do?

Baroness Vadera: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend's observation that poor co-ordination and fragmentation have been a real problem. We have therefore successfully secured the post of a new UN humanitarian co-ordinator, at least partly based in Baghdad. We welcome the arrival of David Shearer, who has experience in the region, as well as in humanitarian issues. He will be launching his first consolidated UN appeal, involving NGOs, in mid-February. We have also managed to secure a pledge for increased UN staff in-country. Therefore, we hope that the centre of gravity is moving from Iraq to Amman.

Health: Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing, I must declare an interest as having been a member of the Southwood working party, which was appointed in the early 1990s by the Government to advise on the implications for human health of the BSE epidemic.
	The Question was as follows:
	To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will promote, through the National Blood Service, clinical trials of the prion capture (P-CAPT) filter to assess the value of this device in the prevention of transfusion-induced variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD).

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, NHS Blood and Transplant has already initiated a number of studies to assess the efficacy of the P-CAPT filter in removing variant CJD infectivity from blood as well as the quality and clinical safety of blood once it has been filtered. These studies are ongoing. This approach is based on the advice that NHS Blood and Transplant received from the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee and the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply. Does he accept that three individuals have died as a consequence of variant CJD as a result of blood transfusion? The prion is not a bacterium; nor is it a virus. It is a small molecule of protein, which is infective, but which has a very long incubation period. I am glad to hear that these trials are being undertaken because this device has already received a European CE certificate and trials are under way in the Irish Blood Transfusion Service to try to prevent the death of any more individuals from infected blood.

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, I am grateful for the advice of the noble Lord, who is a great expert in this field. The P-CAPT filter is an innovative product. However, I am sure that noble Lords will agree that the introduction of any new technology will be based on the efficacy and the safety of such technologies. We currently have three studies looking at the efficacy. We also have one safety study because the filter itself could create new antibodies that might harm the recipient patient. I also acknowledge the fact that Ireland has introduced the product in those cases where most of the recipients of blood are in their childhood.

Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, how safe are blood transfusions? Are more cases of variant CJD expected?

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, any medical intervention carries risks; we are fully aware of that. However, as it stands at the moment, we have applied every technology available to us in screening blood for conditions such as hepatitis B, hepatitis C and HIV. The difficulty in this situation is that we do not currently have a screening test for variant CJD. As we are all aware, it is carried not by blood but by prions—most of which are concentrated in lymphoreticular tissue.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, will the Minister comment on reported remarks by the chairman of SEAC to the effect that the prion is not the infectious agent but merely a sign of infection?

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Countess's intervention. I agree with the analysis that, while abnormal prion proteins are considered to be the infectious agent, the precise nature of infectivity may differ from that of the prion alone. That was highlighted in an editorial in Science in 2007 by one of my colleagues, Professor Collinge.

Baroness Tonge: My Lords, the diagnostic technique of protein misfolding cyclic amplification is being used to test for variant CJD in brain tissue. Are there any plans to introduce that test for blood—could it be effective? Will he explain what it is?

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, I will spare the House a tutorial in molecular biology. However, the test is valid in lymphoreticular tissue. The same test has been used in examining biopsies of, for example, tonsils. The noble Baroness will be aware of the study currently being undertaken to screen 100,000 tonsils. I am delighted to report that 45,000 have already been screened and there is no evidence of any infectivity.

Earl Howe: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the device in question has a CE mark, which means that it has European regulatory approval and therefore can be used quite legally now? Given that the Government have already conducted studies into the prevalence of variant CJD and found the risk high enough to implement leucodepletion, which, as the Minister will know, is not by any means 100 per cent effective, why is it necessary to undertake further studies which will only delay the implementation of effective prion filtration?

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Earl's intervention. CE marking does not necessarily mean that a product has been through effectiveness or efficacy studies. We are carrying out a study at the moment based on a recommendation of the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee, which suggested that an identical study to the one carried out by the manufacturers should be independently carried out by the NHS.

Lord Krebs: My Lords, I understand that the number of new cases of variant CJD each year has now reduced to a trickle. However, Professor Collinge, whom the Minister mentioned a moment ago, has suggested that there may be future second and third waves of the disease. What is the Government's attitude to that suggestion? If they accept Professor Collinge's proposition, how will that affect their attitude towards risk management, including blood transfusion?

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, we have had 166 infections for variant CJD, the peak of which was in 2000, when there were 28 cases. I am delighted to report that last year we had only one infection. The noble Lord referred to the genotype of these infections, most of which have been of the MM variety. There has been a recent scientific dispute about whether one case is of the VV variant. Scientists continue to disagree about whether that case is one of sporadic CJD or variant CJD. At the moment, as it stands, the registry in Edinburgh considers that the VV case is sporadic rather than variant CJD.

Refugees: Loans

Lord James of Blackheath: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What value of loans they have extended under the new integration loans for refugees; and what steps they are intending to take with regard to any arrears or defaulting payments.

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the value of loans paid out under the integration loan scheme for refugees and others from 11 June, when the scheme was launched, to 31 December 2007, is £134,000. Loan payment and recovery is undertaken by the Department for Work and Pensions on behalf of the Home Office and the usual DWP enforcement procedures will apply where there is no compelling reason why loan repayments cannot be made.

Lord James of Blackheath: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that response, but does he not share a little of my disappointment at the apparent lack of take-up of this facility? It struck me at the time as one of the most enlightened and intelligent pieces of regulation put through by this Government. It shone out like a good deed in a naughty world. I hoped it would have had a much bigger take-up than we have seen. What percentage of the number of applications received might that figure be, assuming that they have all taken £1,000 per head, which was allowed? How many have been declined?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right: this was a very good scheme, debated in the House, and we expected a much higher rate of take-up. This has been accelerating since last June, when the scheme initially came in. So far we have had 562 applications, of which 198—that is, 35 per cent—have received a loan. A number are awaiting receipt of signed loan agreements. It is not quite clear why there has not been bigger take-up, because this is very useful in enabling those who, almost by definition, are disadvantaged to integrate into our society.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, what was the Government's response to the Merits Committee's criticism of the scheme that it would be difficult for recipients to pay back even an amount as small as £3 per week, when it came on top of other deductions from benefits? Now that the Government are determining asylum applications within a maximum of six months, would they agree that £100 of every grant made under this scheme should be in the form of a grant, rather than a loan, over the six months?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the £3 per week taken from income-related benefits is a very reasonable amount. One can look at the circumstances and that could be adjusted if necessary. As regards getting back payments and loans, I was very concerned at the thought of using debt collection agencies; indeed, I was grateful for the question that was raised. There are very clear rules for the use of debt collection agencies. I am convinced that, when necessary, we can remove the need to pay back for a period, as long as the loan is repaid within five years.

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, could the Minister tell us what advertising is done regarding these grants or loans? There seems to be pretty poor take-up so far. How are they advertised to refugees and people who are entitled to stay here? Is that done by the DWP, or is it done more generally?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Baroness raises a very good point. I do not know the exact details, but we have a very good system for helping people integrate into society. They are taken care of by around 300 caseworkers, who look after cases around the country. I am sure that they would give them the details, but I do not know the precise answer, so I will have to come back to the noble Baroness on this in writing, if I may.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I am informed—and I ask the noble Lord if this is correct—that people applying for asylum are told about this scheme. If that is so, for how long after that do they have the right to apply for a loan?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I am glad to hear that they are told about the scheme as they apply for asylum. This partly answers the previous question, although I will still write in answer. Exactly how long they have thereafter to make the claim, I do not know. I will get back to the noble Baroness in writing on that, if I may.

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, with reference to debt collection agencies, could the noble Lord tell us what it would cost, per person, to collect a loan of £1,000 that had not been repaid?

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have those facts at my fingertips. I know that the DWP uses the four debt collection agencies that it uses more widely in recovering debts. If I can get that answer from the department, I may come back to the noble Lord in writing on the details.

Government: Departmental Funding

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so—

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords—

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I think we missed the second part of what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, was saying.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the all-party group on defence.
	The Question was as follows
	To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will reconsider the allocations for three years to the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development rising from £5.4 billion to £7.9 billion to alleviate concern as to the availability of requisite funding for the Armed Forces and counterterrorism.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I apologise; I was clearly eager to respond positively to the noble Lord. The 2007 Comprehensive Spending Review set out the Government's priorities and spending plans for the years to 2010-11. These plans are fixed and will not be reopened. Planned spending on defence will rise from £32.6 billion in 2007-08 to a total budget of £36.9 billion by 2010-11, demonstrating the Government's continued commitment to the Armed Forces. The budget of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will rise also, from £1.6 billion to £1.7 billion in the same period.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his response and respectfully ask if he is aware that this does not address the concerns of Sir Richard Mottram, the former Permanent Secretary at the MoD, chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee and co-ordinator of government intelligence and security? The Times reported on 30 December that he said in his Demos lecture that DfID expenditure should be used to its "maximum effect" on defence and counterterrorism.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government agree that expenditure must be used to its maximum effect; that is why this defence expenditure provides two new aircraft carriers for the Navy, protected vehicles for the Army and additional air transport capability for the Royal Air Force—as well as, within the Foreign Office budget, increasing expenditure that will help in broader counterterrorism activities. These points were, of course, debated and taken into account before the spending plans were decided upon last year.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, would my noble friend confirm that the second largest percentage increase in budget after DfID went to the intelligence services, which lead the fight against terrorism? Will he also confirm that DfID's work to eliminate poverty around the world helps to reduce the likelihood of conflict and terrorism?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, of course my noble friend, with his vast knowledge on these matters, is absolutely right that we have made provision in the budget for the reduction of poverty, which is an important part in the general battle against terrorism. As he indicated also, there is a substantial increase in the single security and intelligence budget, which will rise to some £3.5 billion by 2011—more than three times what we spent on these matters before 9/11. The Government are giving proper priority to this important work.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, can the Minister explain why the Government have let defence spending fall to its lowest level since 1930, as a percentage of GDP?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I do not think that defence spending has fallen below that of 1930; it is massively above the spending of the Conservative Government's last decade in power—the late 1980s and early 1990s. The simple fact is that defence expenditure is falling, if the noble Baroness meant in relation to the rise in GDP, first, because the rise in GDP is proceeding significantly, and secondly, our percentage drop against GDP is in line with all other advanced countries, including the United States of America.

Lord Blaker: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary said two weeks ago that one-third of our diplomats in Europe are to be moved to the Middle East and Asia? While there may be a need for more in the Middle East and Asia, given the troubles there, is it not doubtful wisdom to reduce our diplomats in Europe by one-third?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as I indicated in my Answer, there is increased expenditure on the Foreign Office's budget, but its priorities change significantly from time to time and the noble Lord will recognise that there is an immense need to increase our capacity, ability and representation in the Middle East in areas where we are all too well aware that real difficulties manifest themselves. He will, no doubt, have heard this morning the extremely able way in which our ambassador to Afghanistan responded to the issues confronting the Government there, reflecting the enhanced status of his role in the country—a properly enhanced status, given the significance of Afghanistan to world security.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords—

Lord Grocott: My Lords—

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, can the noble Lord assure us that adequate provision of resources for our Armed Forces, for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in this respect, and for counterterrorism will remain a priority over other expenditures?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I apologise on behalf of my noble friend the Chief Whip for intervening on the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, for the second time today between the two of us.
	The noble Lord is right: defence expenditure is bound to be a very high priority. He will appreciate that we need to guarantee the security of our country in troubled times. He will also recognise that we have provided in the budget additional resources for the period up to 2010-11.

Business

Lord Grocott: My Lords, at a convenient time after 6.45 pm, my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham will repeat a Statement made in another place on Northern Rock.
	In response to observations that we have had from all sides of the House about the normal conventions of debate at different stages of Bills, I remind the House that, when we come to debate the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, the advisory rules for debate from the Companion state that,
	"Arguments fully deployed in Committee of the whole House should not be repeated at length on report".

House of Lords (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Lord Avebury: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the House of Lords Act 1999. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
	Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	Schedule 2 [Activities that may be licensed under the 1990 Act]:

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: moved Amendment No. 30:
	Schedule 2, page 55, line 30, after "serious" insert "and potentially life-threatening"

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I have had a message from my noble friend Lady Finlay, who has put her name to this amendment. She says that her train from Cardiff this morning was unfortunately cancelled. She is travelling up by taxi which, apparently, can go almost as fast as the train, and hopes to be here before the end of the debate.
	When we were debating saviour siblings in Committee, there were two main concerns about the drafting. The first was the inclusion of the words "other tissue" in paragraph 3 of Schedule 2, which seemed to be far too wide. That concern has now been met by the Government in the next amendment, so I will say no more about that.
	The second cause for concern was the word "serious" in the context of "serious medical condition". The reference is to page 55, line 30. I prefer the term "life-threatening" which is, as I understand it, the current test. To my mind, "life-threatening" is better because it indicates, with some precision, the right degree of seriousness—neither too broad nor, as I hope to suggest, too restrictive.
	The trouble with the word "serious" on its own is that it is much too vague and imprecise. For example, one meaning given in the Oxford English Dictionary is: giving cause for anxiety; not light or superficial. I do not suppose that anyone in the House would argue that a condition which gives cause for anxiety is a sufficient ground for creating and testing embryos. Clarity and precision, if one can achieve them, are always important in legislation but never more so than when one is dealing with matters as sensitive as human embryology—a point made very well this time last week by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury.
	I am of course aware that the Joint Committee recommended a change from the term "life-threatening" to "serious" and it did so on the basis of evidence of two experts, as was made clear in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. The view of the Joint Committee is obviously entitled to great weight but I suggest that it should not be regarded as conclusive. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, himself acknowledged that when he said—he will forgive me for quoting:
	"There is a huge difference between the conduct of a joint pre-legislative committee, which we had, and the importance of a debate such as the one that we have had this afternoon. Both serve their purpose, but the pre-legislative committee can never be a substitute for debate in the House".—[Official Report, 4/12/07; col. 1663.]
	In this House, we have had the huge advantage of hearing from two other great experts—notably, my noble friend Lord Walton of Detchant and the noble Lord, Lord Winston. My noble friend Lord Walton said that he preferred the term "life-threatening" to "serious",
	"because it is crucial that something of this nature could be used only for the amelioration of conditions that are life-threatening—which are genetically determined and occur in infants, are progressive and utterly devastating in their effects".—[Official Report, 4/12/07; col. 1661.]
	The noble Lord, Lord Winston, agreed with that. He said that he preferred the term "life-threatening" because "serious" is,
	"open to all sorts of interpretations and is much looser. 'Life-threatening' is a better definition and would cover genetic diseases".—[Official Report, 4/12/07; col. 1664.]
	Not surprisingly, I agree with both noble Lords. I hope only that they have not changed their minds, and I do not see that they have. Their expertise in this field is of course beyond all question, but I suggest with humility in passing that, if they had not become doctors, they would almost certainly have made very good lawyers.
	At the end of the debate in Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, seemed to be receptive to the argument that "serious" was too wide a term and she said that she intended to come back at or before Report. I hope that she, too, has not changed her mind and that she is equally receptive today.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, challenged me to think of something better than the word "serious". That was a challenge which, coming from that source, I could not have declined. The clue, I suggest, is to be found in something said by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge. She said that a serious condition in this context meant, or should mean,
	"one which could become life-threatening if not treated".—[Official Report, 4/12/07; col. 1660.]
	That, it seems to me, hits the nail on the head and is exactly what we have tried to encapsulate in our amendment by adding the words "potentially life-threatening".
	I do not know whether it is in order to anticipate the amendment in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, as the two amendments are not grouped together. In his original amendment, the noble Earl proposed a definition of "serious" as likely to shorten life or significantly impair quality of life. I had no quarrel with the first part of that definition—"likely to shorten life" seems to me to mean much the same as life-threatening. However, I had difficulty with the second half of the definition because "significantly" is no better a word than "serious". Indeed, I believe that it is less precise; we get no further by defining one word in terms of the other.
	The revised amendment of the noble Earl includes "life-threatening", which is fine, but it goes on to add a reference to the "quality of life". The word, "severely" in his revised amendment is better than "significantly" in that context, but I am still concerned about "quality of life". Of course I understand and sympathise with the motive behind that part of the definition, but once we start talking about the quality of life, we are entering a very subjective area, which is better avoided. I invite your Lordships to stick with "potentially life-threatening", which can be added easily to "serious". Surely, that will give the scientists enough scope for their important research, for the time being at any rate. I hope that we might all come together on the amendment. I beg to move.

Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, I have added my signature to Amendment No. 30, which stands in the names of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff.
	Last week, I moved an amendment expressing my opposition in principle to what are called "savour siblings". The majority of noble Lords disagreed, and of course I accept the decision of the House. However, in the debate, even supporters of the practice expressed strong reservations. In view of the fact that the Government are determined to press ahead with what many think are excessively broad parameters, it is surely right for Parliament to set more reasonable limits on procedure.
	There was much debate in Committee about the sorts of illnesses for which tissue-typing could be licensed. The term "serious medical condition" is, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, said simply too broad and vague to be a sufficient safeguard in this highly controversial area. No doubt some would say that the regulator—the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority—will reject spurious applications for a licence, but that is putting yet another onus on the HFEA. If it is to be done, it should be reflected in the Bill itself. Amendment No. 30 does that by requiring the existence of "serious and potentially life-threatening" medical conditions.
	The chairman of the Joint Committee, Phil Willis, suggested in an interview that autism might be considered "a serious medical condition" in this context. While I would never wish to minimise the significant difficulties that autism presents, it is not a condition for which the production of a tissue-typed child should be the solution. The inclusion of the phrase, "potentially life-threatening", will prevent such applications and help to ensure that future practice does not stray into creating children to treat other relatively minor illnesses. I urge noble Lords to support Amendment No. 30.

Earl Howe: Perhaps I could briefly intervene as the noble and learned Lord referred to my amendments, which follow in a later grouping. I understand why he did so. The reason I felt it appropriate to try to encapsulate in those amendments a definition of "serious" was the very one alluded to by the noble and learned Lord; that it is a vague term. I was uneasy about leaving it undefined in the Bill. I shall explain later why I framed my amendments in the way that I did.
	The reason I am not drawn to the noble and learned Lord's amendment is that there has to be some flexibility for the HFEA to decide upon each case on its individual merits. That presupposes an element of subjectivity, which is why I do not apologise for the phraseology I have deployed in my amendment. It is deliberate because Parliament should not be too prescriptive in what it tells the HFEA it should do. There could be meritorious cases which do not quite fall into the category of life-threatening. I felt I should just explain to the House why consideration should be given to my amendments when we come to debate them, even though we are not debating them at this precise moment.

Lord Patten: My Lords, to anyone lying in a bed with a doctor leaning over them saying, "You have a life-threatening condition" the meaning is entirely clear. We would all appreciate exactly what that meant. Equally, if some doctor leant over any one of us and said, "You have a potentially life-threatening condition unless you do X or forestall doing Y", we would all understand that. Yet if a doctor were to say to one, "You have a serious condition", that could be interpreted in a great number of ways, meaning giving up a bit of that or doing a bit more of the other, with an unclear end to it. The amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has exact clarity, which he quite rightly says that we in this House should always aim for. We should never—my words, not his—legislate for that which we cannot define. We can clearly define "life-threatening"; we can also with equal clarity define "potentially life-threatening". However, it is extremely hard to define "serious" in a way that would satisfy all noble Lords.

Lord Winston: My Lords, I am reluctant to detain the House, but as my name has been mentioned perhaps it is appropriate that I just respond briefly to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I spoke on the notion of "serious" as against "life-threatening", with the views I expressed largely based on the Orthodox Jewish position. I am an Orthodox Jew, and your Lordships may know that we take a particularly serious view of termination of pregnancy; of abortion. Abortion is only permitted under fairly strict conditions; that is, those that are life-threatening. It is obviously not for me to offer a rabbinical discourse, but I understand that most Orthodox rabbis would regard an abortion appropriate where something is life-threatening and not generally, for example, for social reasons.
	The rabbinical view—one that I share—is that "life-threatening" includes things which involve the quality of life in some cases. What troubles me particularly about "life-threatening" is whether we might include conditions where there would be serious mental handicap. In practice, of course, virtually all genetic diseases, with one or two notable exemptions, are serious and life-threatening. Yet there might be a situation in which a serious mental disorder—I cannot think of one; perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Walton, can—might be so regarded. That troubles me a little bit about this amendment. Otherwise I do not see a problem, one way or the other.
	I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Patten, is quite right about clarity. You cannot have complete clarity. As the noble Earl, Lord Howe, says, this is a matter for decision at the time of the clinical involvement. To some extent, we have to make sure that that is done properly, but also in good faith.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, my noble and learned friend mentioned my name, too. I have not changed my mind. The saving word in this amendment is "potentially". It does not indicate that the condition must be life-threatening, but it may be potentially life-threatening. That is sufficient qualification for me to feel able to support this amendment, despite the excellence of the wording of the one tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, to be discussed later.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I, too, raised this in Committee. Bearing in mind what was said earlier, I will certainly not be repetitious. I spoke in the debate last week when the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, moved her amendment to stop tissue-typing in the first place.
	The amendment is a very good attempt to try to place something restrictive in the Bill on what, as the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, has himself said—he did so in a letter that has been sent to some Members of your Lordships' House today—should only ever be used in some difficult and probably unusual circumstances. This will not be a regular procedure. That is why my noble friend Lord Walton of Detchant, who has particularly applied his mind to this question, is right to tell us that the words would be capable of better interpretation than something more vague.
	The noble Lord, Lord Winston, referred to the issue of termination of pregnancy. I remind the House that, in that context, one can cite the example of the use of cleft palates as a ground for abortion up to and even during birth. It has been used. Noble Lords will remember the case of the Reverend Joanna Jepson, who took a case to the courts. The word "serious" was the justification for permitting that, whereas if the provision had been "life-threatening" or "potentially life-threatening", I do not believe that that could have occurred. For those reasons, and those that I expressed previously, I strongly support the amendment in the name of my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd of Berwick.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, who moved the amendment, referred to the view that I expressed in Committee, based on the recommendation made by the Joint Committee, having heard evidence from a number of experts. I think that I have changed my mind. Merely to have the word "serious" is not enough. I listened to the debate in Committee and I have listened to what noble Lords have said on both sides and all parts of the House. We need something more.
	My difficulty is that, although one is attracted by the simplicity of the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd—I also agree that the word "potentially" is a very valuable addition to the circumstance—I also have sympathy with Amendment No. 33A, tabled by my noble friend, which goes on to refer to,
	"impairing severely the quality of life of a person with the disability, illness or condition".
	I find it very difficult to choose between the two. We have not heard in full my noble friend's arguments for his amendment. We have heard a number of speeches that have supported the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord.
	If I decide not to vote on the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord in order to wait to hear the arguments, I feel that we have rather missed the point. I find that a rather difficult decision. They seem to stand as alternatives; they cannot stand together. I suppose that we could reach the position where there was uncertainty as a result of decisions on Report. That may give us sufficient grounds to have a clarifying amendment on Third Reading. I know that the House authorities are very restrictive on what one may table on Third Reading, but that seems possible.
	I say this with some diffidence, without having heard my noble friend's argument in full, but I am very tempted to vote for the noble and learned Lord's amendment, because it is an improvement on what is in the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said it includes the important word "potentially" before the words "life-threatening", and it meets many of the points made to the Joint Committee, to which I referred in Committee debates. On balance, for the moment, although I will listen to the arguments made in the rest of the debate, I feel inclined to support the noble and learned Lord.

Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, I share some of the confusion about process expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I should like to hear what the procedure will be if the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord is passed. Does that mean that the amendment in the name of the noble Earl will fall? What happens if both are passed?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, it is worth pointing out that the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, does not delete "serious"; it only adds "and potentially life-threatening". In view of his explanation, I doubt whether there is anything potentially life-threatening that is not also serious. Anyway, he has not taken out "serious" and the result is that amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, which explains the meaning of "serious", can be adhered to by the House. If the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, is passed, it does not rule out the amendment of noble Earl, Lord Howe, when it is voted on.

Lord Turnberg: My Lords, I can understand why the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has introduced the amendment. However, is it possible to think of conditions that are serious, but not life-threatening, which one would want people to carry on with? There are conditions that are serious but are not necessarily life-threatening. If a child has a cleft palate, very few people would regard that as sufficiently serious or life-threatening; it is possible to have that as part of a syndrome in which the child is badly deformed, deaf and has all sorts of associated anomalies, yet that serious condition is not normally life-threatening. I am not sure the amendment is quite right.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, for explaining in procedural terms the implications of the amendment. He is correct to say that, should the amendment be passed, we would move forward, discuss, debate and possibly vote on the amendment tabled by the noble Earl because "serious" is retained.
	Testing for the purpose of determining tissue type can be done only when the sibling suffered from a serious medical condition that could be treated with umbilical cord blood stem cells, bone marrow or other tissue of any resulting child. A government amendment to be discussed shortly will limit that to exclude whole organs. This amendment introduces "and potentially life-threatening" after "serious" and would mean that embryo testing could be carried out only if the serious condition that the sibling suffered from was also potentially life-threatening. Therefore, this amendment introduces a higher test, as noble Lords have acknowledged. That higher test would mean that the HFEA would not be able to license treatment of a condition that had a significant impact on the life of the sufferer and which was serious but not necessarily potentially life-threatening. It is expected that most conditions for which tissue typing would be licensed for would be life-threatening, very serious conditions—and all the handful of cases licensed for that purpose to date are so.
	These decisions are not entered into lightly, either by the parent or by the regulatory authority. The licensing decisions made have involved very serious blood conditions and have been undertaken as a last resort. The HFEA has licensed tissue typing for three conditions: aplastic anaemia, Diamond Blackfan anaemia and beta thalassemia. These conditions can be treated with the use of bone marrow or cord blood from an appropriate donor. In most cases this would be either from a family member or a matched donor on the worldwide bone marrow register. However, where there is no match either in the family or on the whole register, as a last resort it is possible to test sibling embryos to see whether they would have a matched tissue type.
	I note the important points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and others. As many have acknowledged, we originally proposed, when the Bill was published in draft, to restrict these decisions explicitly to life-threatening cases. That draft Bill was amended following scrutiny by a Joint Committee. One change made to the Bill on the recommendation of the committee was that the wording in relation to tissue typing should be amended so that the term "life-threatening" was replaced by "serious". We have heard views today and in Committee that it would be more appropriate if this were limited to life-threatening or potentially life-threatening conditions, and we acknowledge those views. As I promised in Committee, I have reflected on this and discussed it with both colleagues and officials, but I am of the view that by retaining the word "serious", we will allow for any such conditions that in the future could be identified as potentially treatable by cells from a tissue match donor.
	In addition, by retaining "serious", we will ensure that the legislation is as future-proof as possible. The HFEA will consider every condition for which tissue typing is proposed and will provide guidance on this in its code of practice. Taking these factors into account, and to ensure that the Bill is as future proof as possible, we intend to keep the wording as it is in the Bill, and I invite the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment.

The Lord Bishop of Winchester: My Lords, would the noble Baroness like to provide us with a definition of the term "future proof"?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, as the noble Earl pointed out earlier in his intervention, we believe that there should be some flexibility for the HFEA to decide. Further, there may be some conditions of which we are not aware at the moment, although science is moving on apace. That is what how I define "future proof".

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply to this amendment, but regret that I am not satisfied with the argument that the word "serious" on its own, without the addition of some reference to a threat to life, is adequate. In my view it is still much too broad.
	As regards the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, while I understand entirely his desire to include quality of life, I have to say that he has not yet persuaded me—he might do so—that it is sufficiently precise to be put in an Act of Parliament. And in response to those who have a problem about which amendment to support, I suggest that, not for the first time, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has produced the solution. Strictly speaking, if this amendment is passed it will be possible for the noble Earl, Lord Howe, to move his amendment because the word "serious" would still remain in the definition. It may require some tidying up, but that could be done on Third Reading.
	Given that, I believe that there is sufficient support for the amendment for me to test the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 30) shall be agreed to?
	Their Lordships divided: Contents, 121; Not-Contents, 162.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: moved Amendment No. 31:
	Schedule 2, page 56, line 8, at end insert—
	"(4) In sub-paragraph (1)(d) the reference to "other tissue" of the resulting child does not include a reference to any whole organ of the child."

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the draft Bill provides for embryo testing to be carried out for the purposes of determining tissue type where there is a sick older sibling who could be treated with cord blood stem cells, bone marrow or other tissue of any resulting child. Concerns were raised in Committee that "other tissue" could include whole organs—for example, kidneys—and that the Bill could permit embryo testing for tissue type where there was an intention that any resulting child could be used as an organ donor for their older sibling. This was not in fact the intention of the use of "other tissue". This term was used to ensure, for example, that the potential use of cells of the umbilical cord rather than the cord blood could be considered. The main use of this technology would be when someone suffers from a life-threatening blood condition which could be treated by cells of the cord blood or bone marrow where there are no compatible donors on the worldwide bone marrow register or in the family.
	In addition, in the future other types of regenerative tissue could be used for treatment, perhaps where a small number of cells could be removed from a donor for culture. In previous discussions this has been referred to as regenerative tissue, as the body could compensate for the loss of a small amount of cells without lasting harm to the donor. The amendment would continue to allow for tissue typing in these circumstances, subject to a licence by the regulatory authority. Taking into account the concerns expressed in Committee, this amendment limits "other tissue" by clarifying that the term would not include any whole organ of the resulting child. The result is that it will now not be possible to license embryo testing for tissue type where the intention is an organ transplant for the older sibling. The use of organs from children in transplantation is governed by the Human Tissue Act, or in Scotland the Human Tissue (Scotland) Act. The Bill does not change this position. The amendment still allows embryo testing where the intention would be to treat the older sibling with other types of tissue from any resulting child, such as bone marrow, cord blood or, as discussed in Committee, types of tissue other than whole organs.
	I am grateful to all noble Lords for their useful and informative comments on this issue. The Government have listened and have brought forward this amendment in response. I beg to move.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I raised this matter last November with the Government. At that time, as the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, will recall, when he replied to my Written Question it was the Government's intention to include whole organs in the Bill. I am grateful to him and to the Government for making some change in this area, but I still have some reservations and I would be grateful if the Minister, when she responds to this brief debate, could say something about what will happen in the case of parts of organs. In Committee and at the earlier stages of Report I raised the issue of what happens if part of a liver or part of a lung is taken, and whether the Bill will permit that to occur.
	The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, kindly sent to a number of noble Lords a letter dated 21 January that sets out a series of useful points about this question. Does the Minister agree that it would a good letter to place in the House Library so that all noble Lords would be able to read it? In that letter the noble Lord says:
	"Several noble Lords have proposed the term 'regenerative tissue' could be used in this context. If this term were used, it might explicitly exclude the use of cells of the umbilical cord that we are trying to capture as these may not be considered to be regenerative".
	There is no difference between anyone in this House about the desirability of using umbilical cord. Many of us have made the point that to routinely destroy 98 per cent of all cord blood, as we do in this country at this time, and to have only four National Health Service hospitals collecting cord blood is itself something that we need to address. I hope the noble Baroness will say a word about that and consider again, before the Bill goes to another place, whether it might be possible to specifically exclude umbilical cord and refer to that in the Bill, and to include "regenerative tissue" as distinct from those things that, once taken, might not properly regenerate. There are levels of morbidity and mortality associated with the removal of parts of organs, let alone whole ones.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I intervene briefly to thank the noble Baroness for having considered this issue so carefully and for bringing forward this amendment. It is very welcome but, as she rightly said, it addresses only part of the concern that was the focus of our debate in Committee. Any decision on whether an organ may or may not be transplanted from a child falls outside the scope of the Bill and is the province of the Human Tissue Authority, based on the merits of each case put to it. While the amendment is decidedly welcome, so far as it goes, because it would prevent embryo testing with a view to carrying out a whole organ transplant, it does not, of course, address whether such an organ is actually transplanted in practice. I am sure that I speak for many of your Lordships when I say that I am grateful to the Government for their consideration.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, I support the amendment, which is very welcome in the light of our debate in Committee. At that time, I was concerned about the point that my noble friend Lord Alton made about part organs; I was even tempted to suggest that the amendment should include part organs. Then I realised, of course, that some of my own research has been in the field of muscle disease and I suppose that taking a tiny sample of muscle by a needle biopsy could be construed as taking part of an organ. For that reason, I think that the amendment is better as it stands and no attempt should be made to include part organs in it, even though we all have concerns, as my noble friend Lord Alton said, about taking part of a liver or a lung. This is a welcome amendment which I warmly support.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their broad support. We would be delighted to place a copy of my noble friend's letter in the Library of the House. With regard to parts of an organ, the Bill has been drafted in this way to allow the use of cells of the umbilical cord or, for example, if it were possible in the future to treat conditions with cells cultured from a small biopsy from the liver or any other organ. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, has clearly explained other potential uses of regenerative tissue.

On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 32 not moved.]
	[Amendment No. 33 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]

Earl Howe: moved Amendment No. 33A:
	Schedule 2, page 56, line 8, at end insert—
	"(4) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(c) and (d) "serious" means life-threatening or impairing severely the quality of life of a person with the disability, illness or condition."

Earl Howe: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 112A. This brings us back to the definition of "serious". I should like to start at a slightly different point from the one that was the focus of the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. New subsections (9), (10) and (11) of Clause 14, which would amend Section 13 of the Act, focus upon pre-implantation genetic diagnosis and take us to a particular aspect of that issue which, but for these provisions, many of us might not otherwise have thought much about. They explicitly prohibit embryos being selected with a view to increasing the chance of having a child with a serious disability or medical condition. Consciously to wish such a disability or condition on a child may seem extraordinary, but there have been well documented cases where parents who are disabled in a particular way have expressed a desire to have a child with the same disability. I find that idea repellent because it ignores one of the issues central to any IVF procedure, namely, the future welfare of the child. Therefore, I wholly support a ban on that type of embryo selection. The techniques available to diagnose the presence of genetic conditions in any embryo should be used, if they are used at all, to reduce the risk of a child being born with a serious handicap and to reduce the risk of suffering.
	Over the years, this type of pre-implantation diagnosis has been carried out in a sensitive and responsible way by clinics on behalf of patients. It is not a technique deployed for trivial purposes. On the contrary, it is seen very much as a last resort in cases where a couple have been unable to produce a healthy child by natural means.
	Two problems have caused concern. One of them is the time that it sometimes takes for the HFEA to allow a procedure to go ahead. The need for the HFEA to approve a particular condition as being serious enough to warrant pre-implantation diagnosis often means a considerable delay for couples wishing to access the procedure.
	It is absolutely right that each case should be considered on its merits. There should be sufficient flexibility in the system to allow that to happen. At the same time, there is an argument for encouraging the HFEA to look at ways of shortening the decision-making process. For example, the BMA suggested that that could be done by having, in the first instance, a set of broad criteria included in the Act, with the scope and interpretation of those criteria fleshed out for clinics in the form of HFEA guidance.
	If we look at Schedule 2 in conjunction with the provisions in Clause 14, those broad criteria for pre-implantation diagnosis and screening are indeed stated. Schedule 2, in new paragraph 1ZA(1)(c), allows for an embryo-testing licence to be issued:
	"in a case where there is a particular risk that any resulting child will have or develop—
	a gender-related serious physical or mental disability'
	a gender-related serious illness, or
	any other gender-related serious medical condition,
	establishing the sex of the embryo,"
	The question begged by this wording, similar to that in Clause 14, is: what does the word "serious" mean—serious for whom? Most would immediately say, "Serious for the child in terms of the degree of suffering or the extent to which life expectancy is curtailed as a result of the child having the condition in question". We do not mean serious for the NHS or the parents in looking after the child or serious for the parents in having to bring up a child who may not be 100 per cent able-bodied. The seriousness of the illness or condition is surely defined, for most of us, from the point of view of the child when they are born. Therefore, we should think of setting out a broad definition of what is meant by serious in the Bill. This would potentially assist the HFEA in terms of Parliament's intentions and it would address a second problem.
	At the moment, there are rare circumstances in which patients, having had their embryos tested, find that they have to choose between a poor quality embryo which has no adverse abnormality and a good quality one which does have such an abnormality. The first, if it is implanted, is unlikely to result in a pregnancy. The second is much more likely to do so. As far as possible, we should try to avoid new subsections (9), (10) and (11) being interpreted in a way that would make it impossible to take a reasonable decision in such a case. Without a broad steer on what should be understood by the word "serious", we might be storing unnecessary complication and delay for couples seeking treatment of this kind.
	There is an equally important concern in relation to so-called saviour siblings. The Joint Committee on the draft Bill recommended that the practice of selecting for saviour siblings should not be restricted to life-threatening conditions—as we have just been debating—and that "life-threatening" should be replaced by "serious". The Government accepted that recommendation. Personally, I have no problem with the change, provided that we know in broad terms what we mean by "serious". Again, we surely mean serious from the point of view of the child in terms of its likely future suffering or the risk to the life of the child.
	The whole concept of a saviour sibling is, ethically speaking, a difficult one. Some people find it impossible to countenance at all: others will do so only in a narrow range of cases. That is why, if we are going to extend the legal grounds on which tissue matching is to be permitted for the creation of saviour siblings and avoid the possibility that the process will be invoked for reasons that are less than compelling, we need to spell out in clear terms how we want the statute to be interpreted. The seriousness of the condition in this context is surely about the probability that it will end a person's life prematurely or cause the person a degree of suffering such as to impair their quality of life to a severe extent.
	Some might argue that there are serious illnesses and conditions that fall into neither of those categories: the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, hinted at that very point earlier on. It is a perfectly respectable line to adopt. But the very fact that there is room for discussion on that point makes it all the more important for us to make sure that the terms in the Bill are defined in ways that are not overly prescriptive but, at the same time, we should leave all concerned in no doubt about what was intended. I believe that the definition that I have proposed is what the Joint Committee intended and I hope very much that the Minister will look at the amendments positively. I beg to move.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I regret that, because of circumstances completely beyond my control—rain and trains—I was unable to be here for the first amendment. However, I would like to speak to this amendment which is extremely carefully and well-worded. One of the difficulties that we have is that the law lays down a black and white division between what you can and cannot do and in medicine we deal in shades of grey right across the spectrum. I will confine my remarks about this amendment to saviour siblings, although I think it applies equally well and is needed just as much at other points in the Bill.
	The difficulty is that what is serious to one person is not serious to another. Medical science is moving on very rapidly and we are now making legislation that we will not revisit in the near future. I will use as an example a condition for which at the moment there is no talk of saviour siblings, so this is blue-sky thinking—psoriasis. Overwhelming psoriasis that affects the whole of a person's skin can be a devastating skin disease, but can amount to a few plaques on a person's elbows and knees. That disease has responded dramatically to the new biological drugs, which suggests that it may be possible in the not-too-distant future to use stem cells in some way in an infant who clearly has that terrible disease. But you have to define how bad it is to warrant a saviour sibling. You will have to be able to say that it is not just "serious" but "life-threatening" as well. Are you going to create a life because it may be a more convenient way of treating the disease, even though there are other ways of managing it, which may be expensive?
	The other difficulty with "life-threatening" is that you cannot wait until the child who is ill is actually dying: you need to think about the saviour sibling concept earlier. The amendment addresses that neatly and beautifully. Without it, I fear that the line may shift and shift until there is increasing pressure to go for aesthetic biological perfection rather than being able to accept the broad spectrum of humanity. Surely, we should only be considering saviour siblings when a condition really is life-threatening and there is strong evidence that without a saviour sibling the child will die.

Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, I very much welcome the amendment in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Before coming to my reason for that, I address his point about delays, to do with PGD, to applications being considered by the HFEA. I hope it will help the House if I indicate that it probably was true when PGD first started. It took quite a long time to go through the system, because each condition had to be considered on its own. The present policy is that once a condition has been licensed in principle, and the laboratory has a licence to carry out PGD, the whole process is speeded up. They do not have to consider again on an individual, case-by-case basis. Something like 70 conditions, some of them very rare, have already been licensed in principle.
	That said, I believe that the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will make the job of the HFEA easier. It could potentially speed up the process further. As he has already indicated, there is an element of judgment involved. We cannot be precise on this, but the phrase,
	"impairing severely the quality of life of a person with the disability, illness or condition",
	seems to set down a criterion that will make it easier for the HFEA to exercise its judgment when these applications come before particular licence committees.

Lord Winston: My Lords, I feel rather happier with this amendment than I did with that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. There are a couple of things I that would like to say, which are, I think, highly relevant. I do not entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, about one issue. I do not believe that medical practice and research are progressing so quickly that we cannot establish basic ethical rules about how we manage things in law and regulation. Things are not moving that quickly. It is very obvious in the case of pre-implantation. After all, as I mentioned the other day, the first child is now coming up for 18. It is quite a long time, in which only a handful of diseases have been regulated and passed through the guidelines of the HFEA, which brings me to my second point.
	It is not entirely desirable to have every disease process regulated in quite the way that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, suggests for one very good reason. There is a much greater expert on muscular dystrophy than myself in this House: the noble Lord, Lord Walton. The defect in the dystrophin gene is found in somewhere between 2.25 million to 2.5 million letters of the DNA alphabet. There are at least 400 or 500 different misspellings that can cause a form of muscular dystrophy, and those different muscular dystrophies will have different prognoses. Some will lead to relatively minor weakness, with a good chance of longevity. Others are totally devastating.
	Lesch-Nyhan syndrome is a much rarer disease, which affects only boys. No single family in the United Kingdom has precisely the same mutation as another; everybody has a slightly different mutation. The manifestations of that disease can be absolutely devastating. These children may frequently expose themselves to damage. They mutilate themselves; they bite their tongues off; they often have to have their teeth extracted to prevent that happening, in case they die of the infection. It is the most brutally revolting disease, which I will not describe in detail because it really is that unpleasant.
	Even with cystic fibrosis—perhaps the most common disease that is a recessive disorder—the nature of the mutation makes a very big difference to the quality of life afterwards. Therefore, the idea that permission should be given in each case is not terribly useful. There has to be a degree of latitude in how this is done and, in many ways, the proposition in the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, fits the bill beautifully. In some mutations one might say that screening is not suitable but in others it clearly is.

Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, it is with some regret that I oppose this amendment, because, having heard what noble Lords have said about it, I can see distinct advantages in it. It may be that doctors can come to understand what is meant by "quality of life" rather better than lawyers and judges. When I was a judge and I had to decide whether a very young baby or, at the other end of the spectrum, a severely ill elderly person, should be given treatment to keep them alive, I and the judges of the Court of Appeal, of which I was once a member, were, where possible, extremely careful not to use the phrase "quality of life".
	As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said, that is a highly subjective phrase. What for some people would be a way of life that they absolutely could not endure would, for other people who had to endure it, be something worth living. Some people might be suicidal having, for instance, very severe back injuries which make them tetraplegic. Others live as tetraplegics with a quality of life that would be astonishing to most of us in this House, I suspect. Therefore, it may be that the medical profession can work out what quality of life is, but I give a word of caution and am extremely unhappy about the amendment, although I recognise the advantages of it that others have mentioned.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, as has been said, the Joint Committee recommended the change from "life-threatening" to "serious". As a member of that committee, I thought that that was a reasonable suggestion in the circumstances. The kind of considerations mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, on this amendment, and by the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, on the previous amendment, seem to go towards a definition of something that was not necessarily life-threatening but was still very damaging to the health of the person in question. Therefore, so far as I was concerned, that was what "serious" meant. After all, it is an ordinary word of the English language and there is a limit to the extent to which it is right to define ordinary words; but, as some of your Lordships have pointed out, "serious" has been used in a context that has led to a surprising result by including something that some noble Lords would not be prepared to include.
	So the suggestion is that "serious" is too vague to be allowed to stand alone in an Act of Parliament. If that is the case, we must look to see whether we can produce a better definition, as my noble friend Lord Howe has suggested. When I read the amendment, I thought it was pretty much like what I had in mind when we changed "life-threatening" to "serious". However, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, with her great experience of the judicial art, has said that lawyers stand away from, and do not wish to define, the phrase "quality of life", and refrain from using it when giving their reasons for judgment.
	I was wondering whether, perhaps, "health" might do instead. We cannot make such an amendment at this stage, but if the principle of this amendment were acceptable to the Government, as I sincerely hope it will be, it would be possible to refine it a little further. But the idea that trivial impairment to health would qualify as "serious", certainly never entered my head at the time of the Joint Committee's deliberations. If, as has been said in relation to the earlier amendment, a definition of "serious" is required, I cannot think of anything much better than this fitting the context—except, possibly, with the substitution of "health" for "quality of life".

Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I should like to add to the points raised by my noble friends behind me, about the quality of life. I think it is dangerous when one person judges another's quality of life. I speak as president of the Spinal Injuries Association. I have heard nurses say when they have seen a tetraplegic—generally a young man—paralysed from the neck down, in head traction, "Oh, he would be better dead".
	Tetraplegics have recovered to live a certain life that other people should not judge. I have seen many of them, and what is important is their judgment of their quality of life, which can be really remarkable. It is quite dangerous for other people to be God.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I was not very happy with the expression "quality of life", for the reasons I have tried to explain. They have been rather reinforced by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss. But once again, I attracted by the solution produced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. Is there not a way in which we can pass this amendment now, and then somehow, by agreement, substitute "health" for "quality of life" at Third Reading?

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I agree profoundly with the noble and learned Lord. I was graciously accommodated at Stoke Mandeville, a spinal injuries hospital, in order to be near to my wife—although I had only one fractured vertebrae which nobody noticed until later. I saw a number of cases there where people with severe spinal injuries—such as tetraplegics—would simply turn their face to the wall and die. The injuries that they had received were not, in themselves, life threatening, but the psychological effect upon the patient made them feel life threatening—they simply pulled up their roots and died. Others got on with life. Who is to say who was right in all those circumstances?
	The only conclusion I would draw from that is that it is extremely difficult for us to arrive at a perfect form of words which will make it utterly clear to those who are dealing with it in future—perhaps in circumstances which we have not envisaged—what they should do. In the words dreamt up by my noble friend Lord Howe, we have a workable piece of legislation. I hope that we will accept it in that light. If anybody finds something better, perhaps it could be added—either here at Third Reading, if procedure allows, or in the other place.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, having spoken in favour of the earlier amendment which was rejected by the House, I am slightly uncomfortable in speaking to this amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Nevertheless, it is attractive in many respects. I agree that the concept "quality of life", despite the efforts of the healthcare economists to define what they term QALYs—quality adjusted life years—is not an attractive one, and I understand entirely the views of our judicial colleagues.
	When I chaired the House of Lords Select Committee on Medical Ethics in the 1990s, we had to look at issues of terminology. We dismissed the idea of "quality of life" but came up with "health and well-being", as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has just suggested. That is an alternative which ought to be very seriously considered because, in general principle, the amendment has many attractions.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I, too, was a member of the pre-scrutiny committee, and I support the position of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I think that he took the temperature of the committee very well when he said that by using the word "serious" we meant to incorporate the essence of the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. From the discussions that we have had on both this amendment and the previous one, it is clear that the difficulty is with the elusiveness of such vocabulary in the Bill, which may generate debates among lawyers and so on about precise meanings. Can my noble friend help me here? Can she say—the noble Earl, Lord Howe, might agree with her—whether an appropriate way forward might be to incorporate the definition in the form of statutory guidance either to the HFEA or from the HFEA to practitioners so that the substance of what is meant by the word "serious"—effectively, "severe"—is available without being included in the Bill in a way that gives rise to some of the hesitations that have been expressed?

Lord Elton: My Lords, perhaps I may make an arcane procedural point regarding the position if your Lordships are unable to come to a conclusion about the best formulation at this stage and if the procedures of the House forbid a return to this matter in full at Third Reading. Noble Lords should bear in mind that, if they include something in the Bill with which they are not fully satisfied and it is cast out in another place, they can then debate it and offer something in substitution so that they get another bite at this cherry, whereas if they and the other place do nothing, the matter is closed.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, as we have heard, there is no definition of "serious" in the legislation. A definition was not included in the Bill in order to allow the HFEA and clinicians appropriate levels of flexibility within which to make licensing decisions, while ensuring that it would be allowed only for medical conditions that are considered to be serious. The HFEA would continue to provide guidance on embryo testing and on the criteria that it would take account of when making decisions about such testing. It would be expected that part of the guidance would include consideration of words such as "serious" in the legislation.
	The Government entirely understand the noble Earl's concern to define more closely the scope of decisions that may be made in this area. In fact, the draft Bill included further criteria which attempted to define that more precisely. However, the Government have given this further, very careful consideration and have taken on board comments from a range of stakeholders.
	The term "serious" is used in several places in the Bill—notably in relation to the granting of embryo research licences for the study of serious disease. The HFEA is given flexibility within those limits—drawing on both its own expertise and the results of regular consultation—to make decisions taking account of all relevant factors. The Government believe that that should be the case here also.
	There is currently no reference to embryo testing in the 1990 Act. Therefore, by including in the Bill the purposes for which embryos can be tested, we are introducing more stringent requirements than are currently in place. Because of the regulatory oversight from the HFEA and further guidance relating to embryo testing in the code of practice, we do not consider a definition of "serious" to be necessary in the Bill.
	I have listened to the excellent arguments put forward in this debate, and it is clearly extremely difficult to define "serious". The noble and learned Lord called it an ordinary word but, as has been pointed out, it raises a huge number of problems. I am attracted to the suggestion of my noble friend Lady Hollis that we should give further consideration to strengthening guidance in relation to this word and that perhaps we should define it more fully in the guidance. I think that we need further discussion about this. It would be difficult to include a definition in the Bill but I am certainly willing to discuss it further before Third Reading.
	I noted the appropriate point made by the noble Lord, Lord Elton—that if noble Lords do not vote on this matter today, they may not have another opportunity to discuss it. I would ask that perhaps we could have further discussions with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble and learned, Lord Mackay, and others, to see how we can proceed. As I say, it may not be possible to include this in the Bill. If not, I am certain that we could indeed strengthen the guidance. Perhaps there will be room for further discussion before Third Reading.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to Members of the House who have taken part in this debate and to the Minister for her reply. I confess that I had hoped for a rather stronger assurance from her that the Government were in principle willing to go down this avenue. I did not quite hear that, although I am grateful to the Minister for her offer.
	My noble friend Lord Tebbit is absolutely right that no amendment is likely to be perfect. My hope was that this amendment would take us forward in a useful and workable way. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is also correct in pointing to the shades of grey that are inherent in the word "serious". I believe that it is too flexible a term. We want a certain amount of flexibility, but the shades of grey in the amendment are not as wide as they would be if we left the Bill as currently drafted.
	The noble Lord, Lord Winston, pointed out the differences between different manifestations of a particular disease, such as muscular dystrophy and cystic fibrosis, because of different types of gene mutation. That is precisely why I thought it right to leave an element of flexibility in the definition, dependent—perhaps inevitably—on a certain amount of subjective judgment. I note the reservations of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. As I suggested earlier, the intent behind the amendment was that the interpretation of the wording should be fleshed out by means of HFEA guidance. I suggest that that would reduce the scope for legal uncertainty.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, made a very telling point. We are not talking here about terminating life, but deciding on the criteria for embryo testing, which is rather different. If the Minister had been able to give an assurance about placing this definition in guidance, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, suggested, I would have wished to withdraw the amendment.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, forgive me for interrupting the noble Earl, but I did give an assurance that we would be able to do something in guidance. I could not give an assurance that we could include something in the Bill, but I give my wholehearted assurance that we will put something in guidance to that effect.

Baroness Deech: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, can she clarify the extent of the Government's powers to put something in guidance? I recollect that it would be within the discretion of the HFEA, and I am not sure that there could be a guarantee that something would be in guidance. I may be wrong and that when draft guidance goes to the department something can be inserted, but I am not sure that I recollect that.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I understand that we have given an undertaking in relation to counselling and information, and that there will be duties on the HFEA in terms of guidance. I think that it will be the same here, and we will ensure that there is a duty on the HFEA to adhere to this guidance. If I am incorrect, I will notify noble Lords as soon as possible.

Lord Slynn of Hadley: My Lords, is it the Minister's intention that the "something" should be nearer to what has been proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, or whether it will be very different and even more vague than the term, "serious"?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, we would work the basis of the wording of the amendment tabled by the noble Earl. However, we would have to take into consideration the views expressed by noble and learned Lords.

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that if something is in guidance it is just that—guidance—and not an instruction? Therefore, the recipient body would look at the guidance but would not necessarily feel obliged to stand by it?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, guidance is guidance, yet the code to which the HFEA must adhere needs Secretary of State approval. As I understand it, that would be statutory guidance.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am again grateful to the Minister. The argument for having something in the Bill which more closely defines the word "serious" is that it would send a clear signal about what Parliament intended.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend. It occurs to me that—

Lord Tordoff: My Lords, really. If the noble Lord will forgive me, I would like to remind the House that this is Report stage and not the first day of Committee. People should have stopped intervening by this stage. I know it is important, but if people wish to change the rules of the House they can do so in the usual way. This is getting totally out of hand.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I have no wish to change the rules of the House. It is perfectly within the rules for me to intervene in my noble friend's speech to ask him a question, as opposed to what has been going on, about which I had some doubts, with people asking views of the Minister during my noble friend's speech.
	Would my noble friend consider that, were this amendment to be enacted, it would still remain possible for the Government to give guidance? The only difference is that it would be guidance on the basis of what we had put into the Bill, and not what we might have put into it.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I find that intervention by my noble friend extremely helpful. It encapsulates what I was intending to say in a rather better way than I would have said it. Given the support I have received, there is a case for testing the opinion of the House. I hope the Minister will understand if I now do that. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 33A) shall be agreed to?
	Their Lordships divided: Contents, 138; Not-Contents, 167.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
	[Amendment No. 34 not moved.]

Lord Darzi of Denham: moved Amendment No. 35:
	Schedule 2, page 57, line 12, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 36 not moved.]

Lord Darzi of Denham: moved Amendments Nos. 37 to 40:
	Schedule 2, page 57, line 33, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	Schedule 2, page 57, line 36, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	Schedule 2, page 58, line 1, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	Schedule 2, page 58, line 4, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	[Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 not moved.]

Lord Darzi of Denham: moved Amendment No. 43:
	Schedule 2, page 58, line 8, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendments Nos. 44 to 47 not moved.]
	[Amendment No. 48 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
	Clause 12 [General conditions of licences]:

Lord Darzi of Denham: moved Amendment No. 49:
	Clause 12, page 9, line 4, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Schedule 3 [Consent to use or storage of gametes, embryos or inter-species embryos etc]:

Lord Darzi of Denham: moved Amendments Nos. 50 to 74:
	Schedule 3, page 59, line 9, leave out "INTER-SPECIES EMBRYOS" and insert "HUMAN ADMIXED EMBRYOS"
	Schedule 3, page 59, line 30, leave out "the testing of embryos" and insert "embryo biopsy, embryo storage or other embryological techniques"
	Schedule 3, page 59, line 33, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 59, line 35, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 59, line 38, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 1, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 5, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 9, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 12, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 14, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 20, leave out from first "particular" to end of line 21 and insert "human admixed embryo or particular human admixed embryos.""
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 28, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 32, leave out "the testing of embryos" and insert "embryo biopsy, embryo storage or other embryological techniques"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 35, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 38, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 42, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 60, line 43, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 61, line 1, leave out "an inter-species embryo ("inter-species embryo A")" and insert "a human admixed embryo ("human admixed embryo A")"
	Schedule 3, page 61, line 3, leave out "an inter-species embryo" and insert "a human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 61, line 4, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 61, line 5, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 61, line 6, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 62, line 21, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 62, line 30, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 63, line 4, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Patel: moved Amendment No. 75:
	Schedule 3, page 64, line 41, at end insert—
	"Cases where consent not required for storage and use for research
	10A (1) The human cells of a person ("the donor") may be used to bring about the creation of an embryo or inter-species embryo in vitro and any embryo or inter-species embryo so created may be used or stored for the purposes of any project of research without the donor's consent if the following conditions are met.
	(2) Condition A is that the human cells are lawfully taken from or provided by the donor.
	(3) Condition B is that the human cells were first stored or used prior to the day on which section 12 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008 comes into force.
	(4) Condition C is that the human cells, embryos or inter-species embryos are used in circumstances such that the person carrying out the research ("the researcher") is not in possession and not likely to come into possession of information from which the donor can be identified.
	(5) Condition D is that it is not reasonably possible to contact the donor to obtain their consent.
	(6) Condition E is that there are reasonable grounds for believing that research of comparable effectiveness cannot be carried out if the project of research for which the human cells, embryos or inter-species embryos are stored or used has to be confined to, or relate only to, material in relation to which there is an effective consent.
	(7) Condition F is that it does not appear to the researcher that the donor has indicated any objection to such use or storage (as applicable)."

Lord Patel: My Lords, this amendment concerns allowing existing cells and cell lines to be used in research involving somatic cell nuclear transfer or admixed embryos. As noble Lords are well aware, medical and biological research is about taking tissue, cells and cell lines from diseased patients to better understand the progression of diseases in the attempt to find treatments and cures. All medical research is based on this principle. The Bill as drafted requires the explicit consent from the donors of any cell used to create an embryo. This effectively blocks the use of many existing cells or cell lines in somatic cell nuclear research. They could include many valuable lines representing specific and rare diseases.
	I recognise the centrality of consent in research of any sort. However, I also recognise that such research involves a transient, embryo-like stage to permit the derivation of stem cells. The research would never create embryos for further development or implantation. The amendment is not about the donation of material for fertility treatment. However, there are existing cells and cell lines which have been completely anonymised so that the original donor is untraceable. In other cases, donors have been told that they will not be contacted again about research. The amendment creates a limited exception for some of these cells or cell lines to be used.
	Provision was made in the Human Tissue Act 2004 for existing holdings of tissue containing cells to be legally stored and used for research purposes when anonymised in form. They were thus exempt from the consent requirement of that Act. This amendment will impose strict safeguards on the application of the exception, which will be overseen by the regulator and research ethics committees. These safeguards have been expanded following Committee, and the amendment now lists seven different exceptions. The discussions in Committee most notably turned on limiting the existing holdings of anonymised tissue where it is not reasonably possible to contact the donor to seek consent. The exception is subject to a number of important conditions, including the condition that no alternative sources of tissue for which effective consent can be obtained are available, and that there should be no evidence that the donor would have objected to this use. As with any research, approval would have to be required from both the HFEA and the relevant research ethics committee. This will ensure that in exceptional, deserving cases, vital resources are not wasted and important research can be carried out.
	The significance of a collection gathered over many years of tissue, cells and cell lines from patients with severe, life-threatening diseases, which my amendment refers to, must not be underestimated. To demonstrate the level of support for this outside this House, I shall quote from a letter from various patient-based charities written to the noble Lord, Lord Darzi. The bodies include the Association of Medical Research Charities, the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign, the Parkinson's Disease Society and many others. They said:
	"The creation of pluripotent embryonic cell lines using somatic cell nuclear transfer will be a valuable research tool to gain greater knowledge of specific disease conditions. Scientists in the UK currently use tissue and cell samples donated by patients for basic research although a substantial number of human cell lines are also commercially available. These valuable donated resources will become unavailable as soon as the retrospective requirement for donor consent to use these cells for SCNT currently in the bill comes into effect. These tissues and cells were donated with the explicit condition that the donor/patient was giving consent for their use in research to help find treatments and potential cures and in many cases it is now impossible to trace them back to the original donors. A specific and telling example relates to Spinal Muscular Atrophy. At a clinic in the US, there are tissue and cell samples donated from over one hundred patients with SMA which could be used to create human embryonic stem cell lines that could model this devastating disease in the lab. As the Bill stands, it would become illegal to use these cell lines".
	Let me give an indication of how scientists who work in this field feel. Today in the Times there are three relevant articles, one of which is a letter from scientists working in stem cell science or related stem cell research. It is headed by three Nobel Laureates in medicine and physiology—Sir Martin Evans, Sir Paul Nurse and Sir John Sulston. It is signed by others such as Sir Ian Wilmut and Dame Julia Pollock. I shall not go through the whole list; 27 of the most distinguished men and women scientists and others in our country have signed the letter. Would they do so if they did not think this was of the utmost importance? Would they put their credibility on the line as serious scientists if they did not think that this was a very important issue that they wish the Government to consider?
	The lead article on the "Comment" page in the Times also makes the point. It states:
	"Stem cell research as a whole opens up huge opportunities for progress in the effort to cure or contain conditions such as Parkinson's disease, diabetes or motor neurone disease among many others. Yet the use of embryonic tissue also, of course, raises ethical questions".
	We all recognise that. The article continues:
	"There is a need to strike a balance between these considerations ... The principle of consent as such is not at stake here. There is no dispute about it, nor is there debate over whether those who make contributions of this kind in the years ahead should be asked if they would care to make an exception, on moral grounds, to anything which might become connected with embryonic stem cell activity. What is being suggested, however, is that it should be presumed retrospectively that, as some donors who it is impossible to contact might have objected to being associated with this branch of research, there should be a blanket prohibition in this area".
	There is also a further article written by the science editor which makes exactly those points.
	This is an important issue. These cell lines, tissue banks and cells are an important collection. Scientists exchange them throughout the world to study diseases and disease progression in an attempt to find treatments and to test and find new drugs. Without being able to research on the existing lines they will have to create further lines. This will take resources and a very long time. Others outside the United Kingdom may not be bound by such a regulatory regime. I am not asking for blanket coverage to allow scientists to use this collection; seven stringent conditions in the amendment will have to be met. I beg to move.

Lord Winston: My Lords, I support this amendment extremely strongly. It is important for the House to understand how difficult it is to generate an embryonic stem cell line. In my own laboratory, in one of the leading science universities in Europe at Imperial College, I have had a team of three post-doctoral scientists—so not PhD students—working for several years with a virtually unlimited budget to produce stem cell lines both from mice and from human embryonic tissue. It is extraordinarily difficult and it is only now that we have started to get lines which look vaguely like normal stem cell lines. In fact, after two and a half years of research, we were so desperate to get stem cells lines that we ended up buying in lines from Harvard University in the United States. When we examined those stem cell lines, we found that they too were defective and not valuable for human research. This is a priceless biological commodity and it is frustrating for us as scientists to see a slight inconsistency in the Government's position. It is interesting to consider that, at the moment, growing consideration is being given to the idea of people having their organs donated without consent after an accident for renal transplantation, yet here we have lines which have been established with consent but not specific consent, so they cannot be used for this research. That seems a very difficult position for the Government to adopt, and therefore I must support this amendment.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, for the same reasons as the noble Lord, Lord Winston, I would like to say something about this amendment but I come to a different conclusion, which will not be a great surprise to the House. The noble Lord is right to remind us that we should see this in the wider context of the debate about organ donation. Having been involved first as a Liberal Member of Parliament and then as a Member of your Lordships' House when organs were taken and used without consent by the Alder Hey children's hospital, I know that your Lordships will realise that there is potential here for considerable controversy and inconsistency in the way the noble Lord has just described. I am slightly surprised that this amendment was not brought forward at a much earlier stage. If it is so crucial, why was this issue not considered by the scrutiny committee in detail? Before we incorporate this proposal into the legislation, should we not at least pause and give it further deep consideration?
	The issue of consent is the crucial one, not the issue of the creation of the human embryo in the first place. Are we willing to allow retrospectively this use of the tissue and cell lines of people who might have a deeply principled objection to the creation of human embryos? That is the problem. We cannot on their behalf take this decision. Certainly, if I were asked whether my organs or cells could be used for a particular medical treatment, I would continue to carry my donor card. It is an altruistic and generous thing for members of the public to do. We should follow the Spanish model of having teams in every hospital in the country. These teams have significantly increased the levels of donation in Spain in comparison with our own country. We should also look at the alternative of using the far less ethically troubled adult cells which can be reprogrammed to create embryonic cells. If we were to do that, there would be no reason for any disagreement between the noble Lords, Lord Winston and Lord Patel, and people like myself.
	Mine might be a minority view but it is perfectly properly held. I think there will be deep concern and anxiety outside your Lordships' House if we agree this principle, which, as I say, is one of retrospection. It could be seen as a violation of the rights of someone's body. We are sometimes properly swayed by the humanitarian concerns raised in your Lordships' House, but outside there are also commercial considerations. We have to weigh all these things in the balance. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, which we are invited to place so much faith in, is a regulatory body, not an ethical one. That is one of the reasons why we have been debating how complex questions of this kind can best be resolved in the future. The HFEA is not the place to do that.
	I was struck by an interview in New Scientist on 15 December with Professor Shinya Yamanaka, who, as your Lordships will be aware, is the scientist who has been involved in the reprogramming of adult cells in order to create embryonic stem cells. I accept that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, specifically said that this would not be for use in fertility treatments. Nevertheless, when Professor Yamanaka was asked whether he had any concerns, he said:
	"In theory, our work means that you can generate germ cells from iPS cells"—
	that is, induced pluripotent stem cells—
	"which could be very good news for the treatment of infertility. So it is good in that sense. But I can make eggs as well as sperm from my own male iPS cells. What if someone took those sperm and eggs from a single person and fertilised them? The result would not be a clone because of the way cells divide during sexual reproduction—the fertilised egg would not be genetically identical to the original iPS cells—but it would be something very strange and dangerous. At this time there are no guidelines or rules that would prevent this. This kind of fertility technology is still very difficult so we don't have to worry about it too much at the moment. But now that everybody can generate these cells, it could become dangerous".
	I do not have a knee-jerk reaction every time someone comes forward with something that may be of use and advantage to mankind, but I believe, as Professor Yamanaka has said, that we have to ponder these things. We should not retrospectively give consent for something that is not of great urgency; it would not prevent the development of life-saving cures. There are alternatives that we should be using. I hope the Government, before accepting the amendment, will give it a lot more thought.

Lord Winston: My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that all the embryos that have been involved in research have been researched with informed consent, although not specific consent in the way that is required in the Bill?

Lord Alton of Liverpool: Yes, my Lords, I accept that. That is why I would like this to be given further consideration. Where specific consent has been given I can see that, even if someone disagrees with the views I have expressed in your Lordships' House, given that this is where the law stands today, that would be legal. As the noble Lord has just said, however, consent was not given with a view to this specific line of inquiry, and people should have had the right to know that before they were asked to give consent; if not, this issue would be in danger of discrediting the whole idea of consent. Before we proceed in the wider debate about organ donation, we should weight these matters carefully and try to turn this into not an area of controversy but one around which we can find some agreement.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, it is difficult to overstate the crucial importance of this amendment for the future of medical research. I am a firm believer in the principle of valid informed consent in the field of medical research, wherever it is possible for such consent to be obtained. I can do no better than to quote a letter in this morning's Times from the 28 scientists to whom my noble friend Lord Patel referred:
	"we, as stem cell scientists and supporters of biomedical research, are very concerned about the proposed ban on the generation of embryos in such research by the use of cells for which the donors did not, or could not, give specific consent. We fully agree that in the future such consent should be a requirement and that it would be wrong to use previously donated cells if there were good reason to believe that the donor would have specifically objected to their use in embryonic stem cell research. However, many existing cell and tissue samples and cell lines were donated, for any research purpose, by patients (now untraceable) with particular diseases, before this sort of research was even imagined. These cells have been well characterised over many years, or have unique properties and may therefore be the best samples to use for the derivation of embryonic stem cells. Such stem cell lines would be of great value in understanding how diseases develop, as well in the search for therapies".
	The letter goes on to say:
	"We are alarmed that the Government has expressed opposition to this amendment, even though it mirrors a similar provision in the Human Tissue Act 2004, regarding anonymous, untraceable 'existing holdings'".
	It finally says:
	"We urge the Government to accept this important improvement to the Bill, which will help to maintain the UK's reputation as the place of choice for this exciting and world-leading medical research".
	I could not have expressed it better. These stem cell lines already in existence, derived from cells which were donated for research purposes, are an invaluable source which must not be allowed to degenerate.

Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, I should like some clarification. Proposed subsection (2) states:
	"Condition A is that the human cells are lawfully taken from or provided by the donor".
	When the noble Lord quoted from the letter in today's Times, he said that many of the cells were given for an unspecified purpose, just for research. What about the ones which were not? Are there records of those who said, "You can take any cell and do anything you like with it" and those who imposed conditions, like people do with organ donation, allowing, for example, the use of their eyes but not their lungs? Is there a significant difference between those who made the point that those cells could be used for anything and those who did not?

Lord Patel: My Lords, just for clarification, the noble Baroness is right. The seven conditions include no specific consent given. So if anybody says that their cells or tissue should not be used, they will not be used.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, in reading out the letter than many of us have read in this morning's Times, has really made the most important point. We are dealing with a cell bank which has been built up over many years. I suspect that, in the vast majority of cases, the original donors gave consent for research into the disease and that they are currently untraceable. Many of them have been anonymised and in other cases the individuals may not be able to be traced at all.
	We are not talking about cells being taken from new donors. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, was addressing at least some of his remarks to that. For that, consent will always be required. The amendment refers to cells stored before the date on which this Act comes into force.
	There has also been mention of the Human Tissue Act or, as I frequently call it, the Human Tissue Bill. Those of us who spent many rather difficult days in the Moses Room debating the Committee stage of that Bill will never forget it. I am very sorry that the Minister's predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is not in his place, because he had to defend the Government's position on the Bill when it reached this House. It was stated then—I suspect by many of the same people who have written the letter to The Times—that that Bill would have made most medical research impossible because of the amount of consent that would have been required before any tissues could be used. I always regard the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, as one of the heroines of that particular battle. By the end of that Committee stage, we had succeeded in putting into the Bill the measures that made the Human Tissue Act workable. It is not perfect, as we learnt in the Joint Committee, but at least it was workable, and much of the research could go on.
	I have a horrid feeling that the Government are making the same mistake that was made four years ago when that Bill came through. This started by thinking that we must have consent for everything and therefore that there must have been consent for whatever is going to be done—even to tissues that were taken before. We were able to establish that that was impossible and therefore unreasonable. After debate, the Government, very wisely, accepted that.
	As I say, the Human Tissue Act is workable. It is hugely bureaucratic, covering far too wide a field, but that is a separate matter. Why must we make the same mistake again? As the noble Lord, Lord Walton, has said, we are dealing with the bank of tissues taken in the past. Therefore, virtually by definition, consent is impossible. The arguments for that, as set out in that letter and in the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, are absolutely unanswerable.
	I hope that the Government will have learnt from their previous error. They had to climb down and realise that if they could do something—make sympathetic noises today—that would be helpful. The amendment might not be right but could be put right in another place. However, we cannot send this Bill away with this requirement for consent for the use of tissues—to which the donor has consented but who cannot be traced—but with the inability to use them without further consent. It seems absurd and I hope to goodness that the Government will listen to the arguments that have been advanced.

Baroness Jay of Paddington: I hesitate to intervene because several points have been raised this afternoon about procedure at Report and I do not want to transgress any rules of the House. However, I wonder if my noble friends on the Front Bench—particularly considering the points just made by the noble Lord, about the arguments from the example of the Human Tissue Act—could find some way of looking at this again before Third Reading?
	As I say, I understand the problems involved with introducing new matters at Third Reading in this House. However, there is a great deal of concern in the House, about the nature and substance of issues raised in the very powerful introduction of this amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Patel—and indeed supported by the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant—combined with concerns raised on the regulatory side, if I may put it that way, by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. Is there any opportunity for my noble friends to find some way forward on this.

The Lord Bishop of St Albans: I have enormous sympathy with the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. I had the privilege of serving with him and others on the pre-legislative scrutiny committee. Part of that privilege meant that we had time to try to be wise. If I may say so, I find that I need more time to consider the relationship between the ethical issue of consent and the undoubtedly huge significance, both scientifically and medically, of all that the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Winston, said. I therefore support the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, in asking whether it is possible—and let me please repeat that I have enormous sympathy about this—for the House to find some way of bringing wisdom to this. Can we quietly and with a degree of ethical finesse come to a mind and say, "Yes, we can wholeheartedly support this" as opposed to feeling, "Gosh, I wish we had had more time to think about it—and until the letter appeared in the Times, it had not really crossed my radar"? Without in any way wanting to stop what the noble Lord, Lord Patel, is proposing, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, in saying, "Can we somehow have a means of thinking this through in greater detail and with more wisdom in the future?".

Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, if procedures allow it, I would like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to clarify the issue of what happens in the real world in relation to these cells. Proposed new subsection (2) states:
	"Condition A is that the human cells are lawfully taken from or provided by the donor".
	That is probably the wrong use of the verb. Are we not talking about an existing bank? We are looking back at a time that the cells were provided and taken. Am I right so far?
	Subsection (7) states that,
	"it does not appear to the researcher that the donor has indicated any objection to such use or storage".
	What would the situation typically be—that we have a bank but we do not know the identity of the donor now? Do we know whether he indicated anything in relation to the cells—whether they were to be used for research or research on a particular character? Had he been asked to provide cells for a particular research project? What do we know and what meaning can be given to subsection (7) in the real world?

Lord Patel: My Lords, am I allowed to answer that? The noble Lord is quite right. Subsection (2) states that they were "lawfully taken" with appropriate consent. Subsection (7) states that:
	"Condition F is that it does not appear to the researcher that the donor has indicated any objection to such use or storage",
	of those cells or tissues for the purpose wanted by the researcher. I gave a similar answer to the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain. If any conditions were attached, the authority would not allow the researcher to use the tissues, cells or cell lines.

Lord Turnberg: My Lords, I rise to intervene very briefly and only because of my position as scientific adviser to the Association of Medical Research Charities, which wrote the letter to which my friend the noble Lord, Lord Patel, referred. I support his amendment very much indeed. I have one further point: if the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, is accepted, we should think very carefully about what the Human Tissue Act 2004 had to say about the position of consent for the use of tissues that were anonymised or from donors who were no longer traceable. We set up the Patient Information Advisory Group, whose sole purpose was to examine cases where consent had not been given. Could that be incorporated into the thinking if we return to this matter at Third Reading? If it cannot, or if that is not suggested by the Minister, I strongly support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Patel.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I join my noble friend Lady Jay in urging my noble friends on the Front Bench that if they feel that they cannot accept this amendment outright today for reasons related to its technical drafting, for example, they should take the amendment in the spirit in which it is intended and return to it at Third Reading. All of us on the pre-legislative scrutiny committee—I support every word that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, and although we have not heard on this issue from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, he steered us through many a quagmire on that committee—sought to take forward the legislative and ethical content of the previous legislation to reflect the changing scientific world we now face. That changing scientific world and the development of research and so forth depend very heavily on the accrued knowledge locked into the tissue bank on which further research can occur.
	Our efforts in that pre-legislative scrutiny process were to try to produce sufficient headspace in this Bill for those of us who could not see round the corner, while none the less maintaining an ethical platform throughout. To require retrospective consent from donors who may well be anonymous or untraceable is not consistent with either the general thrust of this legislation or the work of the pre-legislative scrutiny committee. I hope very much that my noble friends, having heard the debate today, will reflect and see whether they can help the House by either accepting this amendment today or returning to it at Third Reading.

Lord Slynn of Hadley: My Lords, I have one brief point also about subsection (7). It provides that,
	"it does not appear to the researcher that the donor has indicated any objection".
	If there is a challenge by someone to the researcher's subjective opinion about that, is there any way in which that could be examined by an independent body or authority? I am rather anxious about a researcher, hotfoot and full of enthusiasm for his research, looking at this without anybody having the power to look into it and saying that they had had another look and the research was right, or that the research was quite wrong and there was some evidence of objection.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I do not know if I should answer this in winding up, but I will answer now. As I said when I introduced the amendment, both the HFEA and the research ethics committee will have to be satisfied that the researcher applying for a licence has secured the appropriate consent. It is not the researcher who decides, but the research ethics committee.

Lord Slynn of Hadley: My Lords, if that is right, could not the ethics committee, or some other similar body, be brought in to intercede as a further protection? That would satisfy completely.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, the letter in the Times suggests that the vast majority of the subject matter of this amendment—or, at least, a substantial amount of it—will have been the subject of general consent. If it had been the subject of general consent, it is difficult to see that that consent should be restricted or reduced retrospectively. That would be the result of not giving effect to it.
	On the other hand, the letter suggests that that may not be true of all. It is not quite clear that this amendment differentiates in that way between material that is the subject of general consent and other material. I have difficulty knowing how the other material reached the bank. On what basis is it in the bank? As I understand this problem, the general consent provision should operate. If there is no general consent, but there have been some conditions under which the material has reached a bank, that must determine whether it is right to use the material in the way proposed. Therefore, there may be slight differences between the different types that are subject to this amendment. Generally speaking, the idea of using the material for a purpose covered by the general consent already given ought to be perfectly in order. I would think it wrong to try to obstruct that.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 75 and 107 seek to permit the use of cell lines, a tool commonly used in research, for the creation of embryos in the laboratory by means of therapeutic cloning, without specific consent to this activity being obtained from the cell donor. The amendment would apply in cases where the cell lines are already in existence, and the original donor cannot be contacted to obtain such consent.
	Cell lines are immortalised cells kept in the laboratory for use in biological science experimentation. Once taken from the donor, they can be cultured indefinitely and without limit. Scientists gain permission to use these cells by obtaining a general consent from the donor for their use in scientific experimentation. Due to the nature of cell lines, these cells may be cultured for many years. Some in existence today originate from donations made decades ago. Schedule 3 to the Bill preserves the system of consent found in the 1990 Act for the creation, storage and use of embryos and gametes to create embryos, but makes changes to reflect the fact that human embryos can now be created in more ways than simply by mixing human gametes. Additional consent requirements are introduced to ensure that informed consent is obtained before any human material can be used to create an embryo, and for the subsequent use and storage of such embryos. Equivalent consent provisions are also introduced in relation to the creation, keeping and use of human admixed embryos.
	In essence, the Bill sets out a framework which ensures that, if a person's gametes or cells are used to create an embryo, effective consent is in place beforehand. In the case of cell lines, even though the original cells may have been taken from the donor with their consent to research in general, the use of their genetic material to create cloned embryos or human admixed embryos is exceptional, and requires its own express consent. To provide otherwise would be incompatible with the Convention rights. We have done a lot of work on this issue and would also be incompatible with the Human Rights Act.
	Before concluding, I shall answer a couple of important questions. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, rightly pointed out the Government's situation in relation to the Human Tissue Bill. The Government take the view that the use of tissue for purposes under the Human Tissue Act is distinct from the use of a person's genetic material to create a human embryo or a human admixed embryo. The Bill's provisions reflect the special status of the human embryo and are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. For that reason, the issue is different also to the considerations being undertaken by the Organ Donation Taskforce on presumed consent for organs.
	Although existing cell lines could be a useful resource for the creation of cloned embryos, there is scope for an alternative option of using other cells, cells for which proper consent is in place. This is critical in considering whether using existing cell lines would be compatible with the convention rights. The fact that there are other possible and effective routes for research means that it is not possible to argue that interference with the rights of persons to whom the cell line relates is justified on the basis of scientific need. However, I hear the very strong will of the House that we should take back this amendment and reflect further. Naturally, anything that the Government say or do at Third Reading must be compatible with the Human Rights Act, as noble Lords would wish; but I am very willing to take this back, reflect further and we will report to the House at Third Reading, and say where we can move from there.

Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, researchers have embarked on programmes of research on the basis that they have this tissue available to them for their use. As I understand it, if the Bill is passed as it stands, all that research would suddenly have to stop at that moment. Is that correct and, if so, can the noble Baroness give me any idea of how much money will have been wasted on the research that has been done so far, but cannot be continued, because the researchers cannot go on using this material?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, as I understand it, we are talking about the use of tissue whose donors have said can be used for research; but what they have not explicitly said is that the tissue can be used for the creation of embryos. That is the crux of the problem.

Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, so this is research that involves the creation of embryos.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I should point out that this is Report stage. Therefore, procedurally it is now for the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to respond.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I think that I am procedurally in order to ask the noble Baroness before she sits down to indicate to us the provisions of the Human Rights Act that have a bearing on this matter. She does not have to reply in detail but I hope that she will say enough to enable us to have some consideration of it before we reach Third Reading. What she said is news to me, but she may well be right.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the specific concern would relate to Article 8 of the Convention, which protects a person's right to a private and family life.

Lord Patel: My Lords, a legal spanner has been thrown into my scientific argument, I do not know whether I can answer that. I do not understand what human rights legislation forbids the use of tissue samples, cells and cell lines that have been collected for many years from patients who probably died of the diseases in question and who would have wished while dying that if they donated their tissues for research it could some day benefit others with similar diseases, if a cure or treatment could be found. If that is against human rights, then I do not understand the human rights laws. I probably do not understand human rights anyway.
	However, I hope that the noble Baroness is making an offer to me in which she sees a way forward and is giving me a firm commitment to finding a way for such research to be permissible. I go back to what my noble friend Lord Walton of Detchant referred to—the letter of 28 of the most eminent scientists, who put their credibility on the line. Three are Nobel Laureates from the United Kingdom, and there are others. Would they have done that if they did not think that the bank of tissues, cells and cell lines was important, because they could not be created overnight, no matter what legislators in Europe might think? It might be okay for their legislation, but is it right for United Kingdom legislation? Let us put the matter in the context of what we allow. We allow embryo research. We allow through legislation the creating of cloned embryos for research. The Bill also allows admixed human embryos. Put in the context of that, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, mentioned, a general consent is given when people donated these tissues and cells.
	Before I decide whether or not to divide the House, can the noble Baroness confirm that she is giving me a commitment to bring this back with a view to helping to amend the amendment legally, rather than bringing it back and hearing more arguments against it?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I will give a commitment to take this back to see if there is a way forward that is compatible with the Human Rights Act. Should that not be possible, I will, of course, report to noble Lords at Third Reading.

Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, can I press my noble friend and ask that before the next stage we have a statement asserting not only that this matter is incompatible with the Human Rights Act but that spells out why in detail and refers to previous appropriate litigation in Strasbourg on this very issue. Otherwise, a general blanket provision such as this could stop all sorts of things if she relied on the brief words in the article of the Convention.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I will certainly do my utmost to comply with that.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I think that that should make life difficult enough for the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, before we move on to the next amendment, perhaps I may ask my noble friend Lady Royall a question. I know that her burdens as a Minister are large this afternoon, but, in her capacity as a Whip, it would be helpful to the House to have some reprise of the rules of procedure of this House during Report, because the next group of amendments, or perhaps the one afterwards, is extremely complex. Perhaps we could have some guidance on that. I hesitate to put myself in the role of a grumpy old woman, but I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, said earlier.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I shall repeat the words of the Companion to ensure that I do not make any mistakes and I am seeking the assistance of the Table. The Companion states:
	"On report no member may speak more than once to an amendment, except the mover of the amendment in reply or a member who has obtained leave of the House, which may only be granted to: ... a Member to explain himself in some material point of his speech, no new matter being introduced; ... the Lord in charge of the bill; and ... a minister of the Crown ... Only the mover of an amendment or the Lord in charge of the bill speaks after the minister on report except for short questions of elucidation to the minister or where the minister speaks early to assist the House in debate".

Lord Patel: moved Amendment No. 76:
	Schedule 3, page 64, line 46, at end insert—
	"12A After paragraph 12 (as inserted by paragraph 12 above) insert—
	"Consent in relation to children for storage and use for research
	12A (1) The human cells of a person ("the child") may be used to bring about the creation of an embryo or inter-species embryo in vitro, and any embryo or inter-species embryo so created, used or stored for the purposes of any project of research without the child's consent if the following conditions are met.
	(2) Condition A is that the human cells are lawfully taken from or provided by the child before the child attains the age of 18 years.
	(3) Condition B is that, at the time when the human cells are first used, the child is not competent to deal with the issue of consent in relation to either the storage or use of the human cells, embryos or inter-species embryos.
	(4) Condition C is that the child does not appear to the person storing or using the human cells, embryos or inter-species embryos to have indicated any objection to such storage or use.
	(5) Condition D is that a person who has parental responsibility for the child has given their consent in writing and signed it.
	(6) Condition E is that there are reasonable grounds for believing that research of comparable effectiveness cannot be carried out if the project of research for which the human cells, embryos or inter-species embryos are stored or used has to be confined to, or relate only to, persons who have capacity to consent to it.
	(7) In relation to Scotland, in sub-paragraph (2), for "18" substitute "16".

Lord Patel: The amendment is to allow somatic cells from children to be used in embryonic stem cell research. This does not relate to the retrospective collection of tissues, cells or cell lines.
	Schedule 3 makes no provision for parents to consent to material from a child to be used for research. Having listened carefully to the debate in Committee, the amendment that I now propose is more limited in scope, but will still address the major concern that children with severe, life-limiting disorders should not be excluded from the potential benefits of stem cell research. The amendment allows for only somatic cells to be use—not gametes. It is a requirement that the tissue has already been lawfully obtained. This would be for treatment or research purposes, in accordance with common law and consent and statutory requirements, such as the Human Tissue Act.
	The amendment will allow cells to be used in exceptional situations, where there is no possibility of obtaining material from a competent adult because all the sufferers will inevitably die before reaching that age—for example, in the case of serious, innate, immune deficiency disorders and severe muscular dystrophy. The aim of techniques such as SCNT—somatic cell nuclear transfer—is to develop cell lines that carry genetic abnormalities that cause these types of disease. To develop these disease models, scientists need to be able to take somatic cells—adult cells—through an embryo phase in order to generate embryonic stem cells, which in turn would allow the disease model to be studied. These lives may then be studied further, to understand how the effects of such devastating diseases occur at a cellular level, and how potential gene or drug therapies might be developed.
	Research involving children must never be undertaken lightly and there is no intention in this amendment to do so. In addition to the other safeguards, the amendment contains provisions to ensure that consent is appropriately obtained from the person responsible for the child. All research would be reviewed by the relevant regulator and research ethics committee. The amendment is purely about being able to learn more about the serious diseases that some of these children suffer from. Most of them die within the first two to three years of their life. I do not want to rehearse again what I said in Committee about the diseases in detail—diseases such as Alport syndrome, Batten disease and lissencephaly, all of which affect brain development. The purpose would be to study, at an early phase, the progression of these diseases. Why do these children end up with their brains so poorly developed as a result of serious diseases, as opposed to their stem cells developing normally into neuronal cells?
	Somatic cell nuclear technologies can be used to generate embryonic stem cells that are customised to specific patients, such as children with leukaemia, immune deficiency, and sickle cell anaemia. Using these cells, researchers hope to be able to correct the genetic defects in patient-specific cells, direct their differentiation into blood, and, ultimately, identify future clinical treatments.
	The amendment is limited to having the consent of the parents and using the somatic cells of the children. I beg to move.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Winston, referred some time ago to the work that I did in the course of my professional career on muscular dystrophy. It is almost 60 years ago that I began to work on that topic in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. The most severe form of muscular dystrophy manifests itself only in young boys. It is due to an X-linked recessive gene, transmitted by female carriers which is manifest in half their sons. Indeed, half their daughters are themselves carriers of the gene. The late Professor Nattrass and I entitled the disease Duchenne muscular dystrophy because of the outstanding descriptions given in the 19th century of the disease by Duchenne of Boulogne. It causes difficulty in walking; boys begin to waddle as they walk, and by the time they are nine or 10 years of age, they are confined to a wheelchair because of widespread paralysis. In the old days, because of gross deformity, few of them survived beyond the age of 15 or 16. Now, as a result of much improved care, including ventilatory care, many of these boys live until their twenties and even later.
	Research has been vital in learning more about this disease and it is bringing with insight the prospect of potential treatment. In 1987, the gene responsible for this disease was discovered. As the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said, it was found to be a very large gene, with several different kinds of mutations within it. Broadly, the result of this abnormal gene is that it traduces in the muscle cells an absence of a protein called dystrophin, which is an important part of the membrane of the muscle fibre—it is rather like the skin of a sausage. Because of this, that membrane becomes inefficient and, as work in my department in Newcastle showed many years ago, it allows certain chemical substances to get in from the extra-cellular fluid which begin a process of digestion or breakdown of the muscle.
	This disease can now be diagnosed—and has been able to be diagnosed for many years—at birth, by means of a simple blood test. It is clear to all researchers that if you are going to produce a form of treatment that will be effective in controlling this disease, it has to be done very early in life—preferably in the young infant.
	There is a dystrophin deficient mouse, an X-linked recessive gene, which is a model of Duchenne muscular dystrophy. I will not go into detail, but in today's Times, there is reference to yet another crucially important piece of research, which says:
	"Embryonic stem cells have been used to cure mice with the equivalent of [Duchenne] muscular dystrophy ... Scientists in the US have successfully coaxed mouse embryonic stem cells to develop into muscle tissue and then transplanted those cells into animals bred with the genetic mutation"—
	similar to that which—
	"causes Duchenne muscular dystrophy. When the cells were injected into the bloodstream of the mice they migrated to the muscles to replenish them with healthy tissue and improved their function.
	The findings, from ... the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Centre ... 'demonstrate the therapeutic potential of embryonic stem cells in muscular dystrophy'".
	Who knows that this is not something that will emerge in human Duchenne dystrophy within the next few years? In the light of discussions that we have already had on this Bill, the prospect is that, with the appropriate consent as given by the parents and following the guidelines set out in this amendment, it should be possible to take a skin cell from an infant diagnosed at birth as suffering from Duchenne dystrophy to create a stem cell line from that skin cell, using the kind of admixed human embryo to produce a treatment which should be effective in controlling—and ultimately, we hope, in curing—that disease. This is a most exciting development that underlines the need to be able, with all the appropriate safeguards in the amendment, to pursue this kind of research involving children.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, requirements for consent to the creation, keeping and use of embryos, and consent for treatment or research, is one of the cornerstones of the 1990 Act, and is carried forward by the Bill. The provisions relating to when consent will be required and the content and form of such consent are set out in Schedule 3 to the 1990 Act.
	The Bill sets out to ensure that human and human-admixed embryos may only be created for research purposes, and only where the person to whom the cells belong gives their explicit consent. These requirements have been introduced to reflect the special status of the embryo. No one can give consent on behalf of an adult who lacks capacity, and, for the same reasons, I do not believe that a child's cells should be used to create embryos or human-admixed embryos without that child's own consent.
	If a child is incapable of giving consent to the creation of an human or human-admixed embryo themselves, because they are too young to do so, it would be wrong for any person, including the parents, to make that decision for them, given the significance of creating an embryo using their genetic material.
	I have heard the powerful statements from the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Walton of Detchant, but the Government take the view that we should not, in any circumstances, presume that a person's cells can be used in the creation of embryos without their consent or knowledge. I therefore invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I am seriously disappointed with that argument. We are talking about children who suffer from diseases that kill them within two or three years and who rarely reach the age of consent. If they do, by then they are so sick that they are not able to give consent. Yet we say that their parents cannot give consent, even if they wish to do so, because studying the progression of the disease and, it is hoped, finding a treatment is done through creating stem cell lines using the techniques of somatic cell nuclear transfer. We allow that in relation to adult diseases in the hope that a cure will be found for those diseases but we cannot allow it in respect of children, even if their parents wish it. I do not follow the logic of that argument and, if I do not follow it, perhaps others will not either. If they do not, I hope that they will follow me.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I shall not go through the process of government, but I have listened carefully to the points made in the debate. I agreed to take away the previous amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, which in many ways dealt with the same issue—that of consent—so perhaps it is beholden on me to take away this amendment for further consideration and come back at Third Reading.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I thank the Minister. I hope that the Government will return to this amendment—even more so than the previous one. The previous amendment concerned consent that might be generic, whereas in this one we say that consent can be from the parents of children who are dying of a particular disease. Therefore, I do not follow the Government's argument. I hope that if I withdraw the amendment, as the Minister asks, the Government will take it up. In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Darzi of Denham: moved Amendments Nos. 77 to 105:
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 3, leave out "inter-species embryos" and insert "human admixed embryos"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 5, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 6, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 10, leave out "An inter-species embryo" and insert "A human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 12, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 13, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 15, leave out "An inter-species embryo" and insert "A human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 19, leave out from first "the" to "for" in line 20 and insert "human admixed embryo to the use of the human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 21, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 23, leave out "An inter-species embryo" and insert "A human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 26, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 27, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 28, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 31, leave out "an inter-species embryo" and insert "a human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 32, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 35, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 39, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 41, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 65, line 43, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 8, leave out "an inter-species embryo" and insert "a human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 10, leave out from "or" to "include" in line 11 and insert "a human admixed embryo ("human admixed embryo A")"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 11, leave out "an inter-species embryo" and insert "a human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 13, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 14, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 16, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 19, leave out "an inter-species embryo" and insert "a human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 21, leave out "an inter-species embryo" and insert "a human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 24, leave out "an inter-species embryo" and insert "a human admixed embryo"
	Schedule 3, page 66, line 26, leave out "inter-species embryo" and insert "human admixed embryo"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	[Amendments Nos. 106 and 107 not moved.]

Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, before I call Amendment No. 108, I must inform your Lordships that if it is carried, I shall not be able to call Amendments Nos. 109 to 110A for reasons of pre-emption.

Lord Darzi of Denham: moved Amendment No. 108:
	Clause 14, page 9, line 12, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
	"(2) In subsection (5)—
	(a) omit ", other than basic partner treatment services," , and(b) for "a father" substitute "supportive parenting"."

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, I shall speak also to government Amendments Nos. 127, 176 and 177 and to Amendments Nos. 126, 108A, 108B, 127A and 110A.
	The 1990 Act contains a requirement for clinicians to take into account the welfare of the child, including the child's need for a father. The Bill, as introduced in November, removes that requirement, while retaining the need to consider the welfare of the child. Concerns about the removal of this provision have been clearly made. Although intending to continue to omit the reference to a need for a father, we agreed to consider further how the welfare-of-the-child provision might best reflect comments made in Committee. As many noble Lords are aware, we have discussed this issue at great length and are grateful for all the comments that we have had on this very important issue.
	It is generally considered to be beneficial for a child to have a mother and a father, and many fathers play a significant and important role in their children's lives. We also recognise that same-sex couples and single mothers can, and do, offer loving and supportive environments for raising children. Parliament has passed legislation allowing the legal recognition of civil partnerships and preventing discrimination on the grounds of sex and sexual orientation. In line with this government policy, the Bill provides for civil partners and same-sex female couples to be named as the parents on birth certificates. We feel that retaining the need-for-a-father provision, or indeed any other provision that mentioned a mother and a father, would be inconsistent with the wider government policy of promoting equality.
	In this context, that would mean that any provision that placed additional hurdles for same-sex couples or single women accessing treatment compared with heterosexual couples would not be appropriate or acceptable. That would inevitably be the case if the provision mentioned either just a father or both a father and a mother. In addition, it is the Government's view that such a provision might be incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Therefore, we cannot accept amendments that could be discriminatory and we would seek to overturn any that were introduced.
	The key requirement of Section 13(5) of the 1990 Act is the welfare of any child that may be born. As our discussions have indicated, at the heart of the welfare of the child is the need for supportive parenting. Accordingly, our amendment replaces the need for "a father" with the need for "supportive parenting". I am sure that everyone accepts the importance of supportive parenting in the context of child welfare and therefore the intention behind the amendment. I also recognise that for many noble Lords the key to this is how the term "supportive parenting" is defined.
	We consider that a supportive parent would be willing and able, first, to make a long-term commitment to safeguard and promote the child's health, development and welfare and, secondly, to provide direction and guidance in a manner appropriate to the age and development of the child. This definition is suggested in an amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who drew upon wording in the Children (Scotland) Act 1995.
	In our opinion, an Act concerning fertilisation and embryology is not the appropriate place to have specific statements or definitions about parenting, as it would probably have to have relevance to parenting generally and not just in the context of assisted reproduction. However, we acknowledge the importance of knowing the meaning of the term, particularly for clinicians who carry out the assessments, and therefore we believe that it would be appropriate to have an explanation of this term in guidance produced by the HFEA—in its code of practice, which is subject to approval by the Secretary of State.
	Accordingly, in addition to the requirement to take into account a child's need for supportive parenting, we are including a provision in the Bill to make it a statutory requirement for the HFEA to produce guidance on the need for supportive parenting in the context of the welfare of the child.
	Another prime consideration about the term relates to how it would be applied in practice. People embarking on assisted reproduction are fully committed to having a child and have given a great deal of thought to it. Therefore, in general, it would be expected that such people would be supportive parents. However, as part of the consideration of the welfare of the child, in rare situations where the treatment providers are aware of any evidence or indications that that is not the case, they should take into account the need of the child for supportive parenting when considering whether to provide treatment. For example, where a child is conceived following gamete or embryo donation, it is beneficial for the child to be told of this fact at an early stage. This is something that we have discussed separately but, in this context, a commitment to inform the child at an early age would be indicative of supportive parenting.
	Single women and same-sex couples currently receive assisted reproduction treatment in licensed clinics and we would not want the Bill to impede that. It is therefore important that any interpretation of supportive parenting does not contradict or impede this position. I believe it is true to say that it is generally regarded to be beneficial for a child to have a mother and a father, but this does not preclude other parental situations from being regarded as supportive. All patients need to consider how they will provide supportive parenting to the child and how they will provide for the needs of that child. It is critical that the welfare of the child is safeguarded. We believe that this is achieved by referring to the need to have "supportive parenting".
	At the heart of this policy is the need for the child's best interests to be met by parents. We therefore propose the following wording:
	"A woman shall not be provided with treatment services unless account has been taken of the welfare of any child who may be born as a result of the treatment, including the need of that child for supportive parenting, and of any other child that may be affected by the birth".
	Amendments Nos. 176 and 177 are consequential.
	I shall now move on to the other amendments in this group. This issue has been one of the most discussed in the Bill and I know that there are strongly held views on it. We have heard the concerns expressed and have tabled an amendment, as discussed, to try to address some of these concerns. It is our view that "supportive parenting" is a key concern when it comes to considering the welfare of the child. This comes down to the quality of parenting rather than necessarily having both a mother and a father.
	Amendment No. 108A, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady O'Cathain, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, suggests an amendment to government Amendment No. 108. This would replace "supportive parenting" with,
	"support by a father and a mother".
	Amendment No. 127Ais consequential to Amendment No. 108A. "Supportive parenting" was chosen to ensure that the term did not present obstacles to the treatment of same-sex couples and single women. We believe that other amendments being proposed would make access to treatment more difficult in those family situations where there would not be a father, and that is not appropriate. In addition, such an amendment is not in line with the Government's position of promoting equality.
	Amendment No. 108B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, seeks to amend government Amendment No. 108 by inserting "and family life" after "parenting". This would mean that when taking account of the welfare of the child, a clinician would have to consider the child's need for supportive parenting and family life, or the child's need for supportive parenting and the advantages of having a mother and a father.
	I shall address each of these additions in turn. The first refers to family life. This introduces an additional factor. Not only does a child need supportive parenting; it will also require a family life. A family life would automatically be implied by "supportive parenting". Further guidance on the meaning of "supportive parenting" will be included in the HFEA code of practice. In our view, all children would automatically be part of a family, which in some cases would include brothers, sisters and a larger extended family, but in other cases could just be one other person—the mother. People who do not have a wider family would not automatically fulfil the criteria and would require additional consideration. In our view, neither interpretation of the additional wording is appropriate.
	The alternative addition proposed reflects wording in Amendment No. 110A, tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. This amendment would require a clinician, when taking into account the welfare of the child, to consider a child's need for supportive parenting and the,
	"advantages of having a father and a mother".
	As discussed, any amendment that refers to both a mother and a father would place additional hurdles for same-sex couples or single women accessing treatment compared with heterosexual couples. The amendment would be inconsistent with the wider government policy of promoting equality.
	Amendment No. 108C, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, also relates to government Amendment No. 108, introducing "supportive parenting" into the welfare of the child provision. Legislation relating to fertility and embryology, as we are discussing today, is not the appropriate place to have a general definition of "supportive parenting". Such a definition would be much more appropriate in legislation relating to responsibilities towards children who have been born, such as the Act from which these words were inspired—the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. However, we recognise the importance of exploring the terminology, and we certainly agree with the principle of the definition proposed. This would be more appropriate in guidance than in the Bill.
	Amendment No. 109 proposes maintaining the requirement for licensed clinics to consider the need for a father of any child born before providing treatment. This would maintain the position under the 1990 Act, which, as I said earlier, would not be consistent with the Government's wider policy to promote equality and to prevent discrimination on the grounds of sex and sexual orientation.
	Amendments Nos. 110 and 110A, tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, refer to both the father and the mother but require that a clinician consider the advantages or disadvantages of having both. Again, we can clearly see what these amendments are trying to achieve and we acknowledge their purpose. However, neither amendment would be appropriate as it would introduce a difference in consideration between heterosexual couples and same-sex couples or single mothers, so we cannot accept them.
	An argument has been put forward that the,
	"need of a child for a father",
	provision should remain as a principle. This is based on the view that it has not done any harm and has not prevented same-sex couples or single women accessing treatment. It does not prevent the provision being unnecessary, inappropriate and out of step with practice in society. If the provision is not doing any harm, it is probably because the HFEA code of practice provides for minimal additional consideration by clinicians for these couples or women, largely because it was out of step with family structures in today's society. If this provision—or indeed any provision requiring consideration of a father—remained, the HFEA would have to reconsider the flexibility of its guidance to reflect the reaffirmed intention of Parliament.
	If the purpose of any provision is to prohibit single women and same-sex couples accessing treatment, which the Government would oppose, we need to ask ourselves why we would wish to retain such a provision. It would be inappropriate to retain a provision that undermines the promotion of equality in principle for the reason that it had not done any harm. The Government cannot support these amendments. I beg to move.

Baroness Deech: moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 108, Amendment No. 108A:
	Clause 14, line 4, leave out "supportive parenting" and insert "support by a father and a mother"

Baroness Deech: My Lords, I pray in aid the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, in her famous report of more than 20 years ago. The point of regulation is that people want to know that there are some basic moral principles that keep watch over scientific advances. Once people are well informed, they seem to welcome further embryo research, provided that certain boundaries are not crossed—for example, genetic manipulation or sex selection. The need for parents is only the second moral or ethical principle in this law—the first being consent, on which your Lordships have just had an intense debate. There is nothing else in this law of those moral principles.
	The need for parents is an expression of the understanding that science should not leave aside the basics of family foundation and child-raising. That is why cloning has been banned, as the ultimate expression of the ability to produce a child with only one parent. If the principle of a need for parents or for a father is removed, the message to the public is that a line has been crossed that people do not want crossed, that there are no bars to methods of producing children that might be harmful, offensive or contrary to the interests of a healthy child—which is in the interests of us all.
	Your Lordships have repeatedly called, with consensus, for ethical principles to be enshrined in embryology law. If the fundamental principle of equal respect for mothers and fathers, for which my amendment argues, is not won, it is hard to see where the law can possibly succeed in establishing ethical principles. I pursue it not because I make any ethical claim for myself, but because I know from my tenure at the HFEA that science will progress satisfactorily if it has public approbation through regulation, with principles that are well understood. I wish the scientific parts of this Bill, which have gone a long way forward, to succeed and to bring good to us all. Your Lordships know well that, although this House has voted quite rightly in favour of more scientific permissiveness in this law, there is some unease among the public. I appreciate the extra trouble the Government have taken to meet the concerns expressed, hence my inclusion in this amendment of the need for a father and a mother. This should not be a party issue. This House should reach a consensus on what is necessary without the need to consider what might be a party line.
	My objection to the wording of some of the more detailed amendments that come in this group and the next is that, while I know they are meant to be helpful and to define, their wording is derived from existing law on custody, adoption and child welfare. There, assessments are made of parents' behaviour retrospectively. You have the parents and the child, and you can look back to see whether they were supportive parents and how they behaved in relation to the child. IVF is prospective. The doctor has a woman or a woman and man standing there waiting for treatment. Of course they will say that they are committed to supportive parenting, that they give this or that undertaking, yet it is all purely speculative. We need a phrase or principle in this law for the doctors and for the public, one that is simple and can be readily understood, and that can permeate the guidance that the HFEA will give in its code—which may flesh it out or water it down.
	Keeping the requirement to have regard to the child's need for mothers and fathers is an important case of non-discrimination. It is about upholding parenting and equal respect for both sexes in their roles. It is about avoiding the risk I have referred to on earlier occasions in this debate that scientific advances in fertility may dehumanise in particular fathers, who are reduced to mere sperm donors and who, having done their job, can go away with no regard to their vital importance in children's welfare. Women have fought a long battle to be recognised in their maternal role, for their bodily integrity and autonomy, and for their role to be valued. It is now the turn of men to fight that same battle, for they are falling behind in this need to keep humanity in our IVF law. What would be the reaction of your Lordships' House if this Bill were somehow to say that no account need be taken of a child's need for a mother? I think it would be instantly adverse.
	What I say on these principles applies equally to male gay relationships. Let us remember that although the need for a mother has been implicit because it has been the mother who is presented for treatment, scientific advances mean that may no longer be so in a few years' time, if we envisage the artificial production of gametes or the use of eggs from aborted foetuses. Those things have not so far been approved because a child would then lack parents.
	The state should not deny the child's need for a father and a mother. The public, when polled, have expressed overwhelming support for this. Some 77 per cent of the public think the need for a father is important, and I am sure a mother, too. Even more young people—84 per cent of 18 to 24 year-olds—want to see the children having a legal father as well as a social one. To fly in the face of what the public want would, in the long term, jeopardise the confidence that the public have in the regulation of embryology and IVF, in which this Bill takes such a large step.
	The Government have recognised these concerns with this alternative phrase about supportive parenting, but I am sad to say that those words are not appropriate or acceptable. They add nothing to the existing statutory and judicial interpretation of welfare, which for a century has included a parental relationship anyway. The government amendment will not mean much to the public, and will present difficulties of interpretation to clinicians and to the HFEA in drawing up guidance in the code, as with all the other amendments along these lines. The approach of my amendment is clear; it accords with the consensus of the pre-legislative scrutiny committee that two parents were a good value to promote.
	I will not delay your Lordships with arguments I have put before about the value of having two parents, the research that shows how valuable they are, and the problems we have in this country in our failure to appear in world tables of the health and happiness of our young people. The research that has been done on same-sex rearing of children of course only deals with very young children and is at an early stage. It is greatly outweighed by the research going the other way, and begs the question whether children would not do even better if there were a father. The NSPCC has called recently for greater paternal involvement and flexible working patterns in the light of research showing that children need fathers.
	The law, as it was, by no means absolutely banned the principle that said that children need fathers. It was more an exercise of discretion. In the last year of statistics, over 2,000 women who were single or lesbian accessed IVF treatment, according to HFEA figures. Overwhelmingly they are single women who have waited a long time for the right man—or even a reasonably acceptable would-do man—to turn up, but he has not. This is sad, but it makes us think about the problems of family life today.
	It is not discriminatory—there I must disagree with the government position. We have a law against ageism in this country, but would a doctor not be within his rights to say, after considering the plea of a 70 year-old woman for IVF treatment, that he thought it was not in the interest of the child? We have a law against ageism, but this is an area for discretion. By retaining the need for a father and a mother to be considered—not actually to be present—we will be staying in line with most of Europe. There has been no challenge to that. We will be out of line with most of Europe if we water down that requirement. This is an area where the courts of Europe will grant a certain amount of leeway to national countries to do as they think fit.
	I feel fairly confident that we are not breaching human rights by requiring a father and mother. Indeed, I think that most people would be astonished to regard it as a breach of human rights or discriminatory to say such a thing. If there is real discrimination, it is in the patchy and sparse provision by the NHS. It would not surprise me if someone one day said, "I have a right to access fertility treatment on the NHS, but it is not being given to me". That is the real discrimination.
	Speaking as an academic lawyer, I think that the principle in law is very important, almost regardless of what has happened in practice. To remove the need for parents sends an unfortunate signal. Moreover, the Government, rightly, have encouraged paternity leave as well as maternity leave. They encourage child support from fathers. They, as do the judges, encourage contact with fathers after divorce. They encourage the registration of a father's name on the birth certificate. They have ended the anonymity of sperm donors. Why, if they are not important? With all the drawbacks of reduced numbers of donors, why has anonymity been ended? Why is there a drive to tell children who their fathers were, if not for the simple reason that to know your father is a good thing? As the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child says, the child has a right to know and, if possible, to be cared for by its parents. That is the one basic ethical principle that I believe should be in our law.
	In response to everything that has been said in the debates and in the pre-legislative scrutiny committee about ethics being written into the Bill, if this House does not sign up to this ethical principle, I will find it very hard to believe. If we cannot agree on this, there is diminishing hope for good, safe, acceptable popular progress in science and its regulation in the future in this country, where it has been so successful, on the basis of the 1990 Act. I beg to move.

Viscount Simon: My Lords, I advise your Lordships that, if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 108C due to pre-emption.

The Archbishop of York: My Lords, as we are at Report, I will not repeat some of the things that I have said previously in this House. I am one of those who have always found it difficult when people are so morally rigorous that you can end up with an injustice. More rigour does not help. Nor have I always been persuaded, as I am seeing happen more and more often in this great country, when competing rights are set up and then some rights can trump other rights. I am one of those who are totally committed to equality, fairness and justice, but I cannot be persuaded that phrases such as "supporting parenting" equals a mother and father. It is such a vague phrase. We need to define it to know what we mean.
	I come from a family where I am one of 13 children. I was raised largely by my grandmother, but I wanted to know who my parents were. I knew who my mum was, I knew who my dad was, but I was raised by what I call "supporting parenting". It worked. I come from a very large extended family, including uncles and aunties, but we knew who our dad was. As for the phrase "supporting parenting", supposing that a child wants to know, "Who is my dad?", and is told, "Don't ask such questions. It is discriminatory. We are your supporting parents". A child will not be satisfied. A child wants to know. I have friends who are in same-sex relationships who, through treatment, have children. The children know who their dad is, who is responsible for the sperm. I think that it is important to extend that element of family help and support.
	The 1990 Act considered the need for a child's concerns to be taken care of and the need for a father. That phrase has not prevented my friends from having treatment and having children when they are in a same-sex couple. There is this fear that it looks discriminatory. Removing from the statute the words "father and mother" is trying to discriminate against another group of people. Again, here are competing rights. The current provision is that that is where it is still possible; the arguments were made at the time.
	The think-tank report from the Fatherhood Institute, The Difference a Dad Makes, makes salutary reading about how, in this great nation, fathers are sometimes not in the forefront of the raising of their own children. It is almost being suggested now that it does not matter much whether fatherhood is an important thing or a good thing. The person whom I know who donated the sperm to my friends for them to have a child could not be in a relationship with that person. None the less, on the birth register, his name is there and he has every intention, although from a long distance, still to take responsibility as a father. That has not prevented the family arrangements as they are at the moment.
	May we not be in that moral liberalism, that is so strong, that we may be unjust, that we set up competing rights where some trump other rights? This country has been very great at finding a middle way. So I support, instead of the phrase "supporting parenting", the phrase "support by a father and mother". That does not prevent other arrangements, other families, being involved.
	I fostered children because their mother died of cancer. We reached the stage where we wanted to adopt them. It became quite clear that, if we went down that road, they should still have their father's name, instead of taking on our name. We could not do that legally because of a number of complications, so we continued to foster them. They call us "auntie" and "uncle". Their parents are now both dead. We have raised them up and they are thriving. Friends, we were "supportive parents" in that respect, but that did not prevent them knowing who their dad and their mum were. Ask yourself: what is it that we are trying to ask and trying to do?
	I say to your Lordships that, for me, Amendment No. 108A is a much better phraseology. As we are seeing this afternoon, very loose phrases, such as supportive parenting, are being used without any clear definition. Lawyers out there want to know: what is supportive parenting? What does it look like? How do we know? Do we compare this house with that house or that place? I go for the words, "supported by a father and a mother", which does not leave out other arrangements in our society.

Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, in Amendment No. 108A, which I have co-signed, requiring IVF providers to consider the need for a father as well as a mother. The Government are seeking to remove the need for a father from existing legislation, but their case contains a fundamental contradiction which they have so far sought to avoid. I know that the Government and those who have taken part in previous debates are all agreed that the best interests of the child are paramount in the Bill, but it can never be in the child's best interests for someone to decide that he or she does not need a father. If our primary concern is the best interests of the child, noble Lords must support Amendment No. 108A.
	At various points during consideration of the Bill, we have heard in this House and read in the media of individuals who have been raised without a father, and yet who have grown up happy and well adjusted. While of course we rejoice at the outcome for these individuals, we must be wary of such anecdotal evidence. As I have said before, stories with happy endings are not the basis on which to make law. Many people could testify to the negative impact on their life of growing up without a father. Both public opinion and the weight of sociological research recognise the vital importance that the father plays in a child's development. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has already quoted the ComRes poll which found that 77 per cent of those interviewed considered the obligation for IVF clinics to consider the need for a father to be "important" or "very important". In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and I referred to and quoted from extensive bibliographies of evidence. All of that research is on record. Amendment No. 108A has significant support from sound research and from the public.
	As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, reminded us, the evidence before the Joint Committee showed that the 1990 requirement to consider the need for a father has done no harm. I know that the Minister has stated that we should not create legislation on the basis of no harm, but I suggest that we should ask ourselves what harm could be done if we removed that requirement. What signal would we be sending to the public if we removed the phrase "the need for a father"? New laws send out clear and powerful messages. People will conclude that Parliament now thinks that fathers are an optional extra.
	The Minister stressed in Committee that the Government's decision to remove the phrase,
	"including the need for a father"
	was not motivated by any attack on fathers or the concept of fatherhood. Although I know he means it—we have discussed it off the Floor of the House—government motivation and public perception do not seem to coincide in this respect. The public impression is and will be that removing the phrase undermines the role of fathers. That is surely the crux of the matter.
	Government Amendment No. 108 speaks in the vaguest of terms. The suggested replacement is "supportive parenting". It is not clear what that means. Whatever it is, the amendment does not require consideration of the need for a father. An overwhelming weight of evidence shows that a child is most likely to have good outcomes living in a family with both a mother and a father, above all when the parents are married. The Government amendment simply fails to address the fundamental issue. It will replace a firm recognition of the importance of the father with an inadequate alternative. I believe that to remove the requirement to consider the child's need for a father prioritises the desires of people to be parents above the needs of the child. I repeat: it prioritises the desires of people to be parents above the needs of a child. That is not a change I believe noble Lords should support and I urge them to support Amendment No. 108A.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I support the government amendment and oppose the other amendments. I applaud, of course, and share entirely the purpose of those who are moving amendments to the government amendment: we all share the desire to ensure that there is effective and proper parenthood in this country. In this group we are talking about an entirely different question from that addressed principally by—if he will allow me to say so with great respect, for he knows that I am a great admirer of his—the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York. The question "who is my genetic father?" is one that should always be capable of answer by honest parents to inquiring children. It already happens in adoption, and all those of us who support the government amendment and oppose the other amendments believe that an analogy with adoption is entirely appropriate here. We are taking about a different question.
	I share too the determination of the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, to crusade for responsible parenthood. Again with great respect, for I admire her enormously as well, I say to her that in reality any crusade for universal responsible fatherhood was lost a couple of generations ago, as those of us who have practised the criminal law have come to learn day by day.
	Yesterday I had the privilege of hearing a sermon in a small Anglican church in London in which the priest warned of the dangers of what he called the abyss of selective morality. I fear that in considering and particularly voting for the amendments to the government amendment, we are on the edge of that very abyss. We have heard a bit about ethics. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, seemed to me to speak of ethics as though they were some kind of immutable force, but they are not. Science is a mover of ethics, as ethics are a mover of science. This is not a static issue.
	Those who are involved in same-sex partnerships are offended, and in my view rightly offended, by the inference behind what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is proposing. They say that there is no evidence for the finger of criticism to be pointed at them in the way implied by what is requested. They say that they offer no standard lower than any other form of parenthood. They say, rightly in my view, and as I think the Minister was saying, that if the government amendment is not carried, there is a severe risk of the law passed by this House being offensive to the European Convention on Human Rights. I now turn with some trepidation to a very personal observation—

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way; I am very grateful. Which particular provision of the European Convention on Human Rights does he have in mind?

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I have in mind the provisions dealing with family life, as the noble and learned Lord will well understand. The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, made it very clear, as I understood his speech, that the Government's view is that what would be in the law if the amendment to the amendment were carried would be discriminatory against same-sex couples.
	I was about to make a very personal observation, and with some trepidation. I do so with the consent and indeed the encouragement of my middle daughter, who lives in a same-sex couple. I do not know how many of your Lordships have the privilege of being the grandparent—of course this place is full of grandparents, and great grandparents—of a child or children from a same-sex couple. I have one and eight-ninths grandchildren, if you see what I mean, from a same-sex couple. The daughter in question, my middle daughter, is a solicitor, and her partner is an accountant. They are—if they will forgive me—as square as a box. They live in a provincial town in England, in a splendid semi-detached house with double-glazed new windows and a Vauxhall Zafira sitting in the drive. Their child, my grandson, is the picture of health and his parents are morally exemplary. They happen to be married to each other through a civil partnership and they are both female.
	I hear the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, unhelpfully muttering from a sedentary position. I do not expect to persuade him, and I am sure that he will do me the politeness of giving me a quiet and fair hearing. I do not give way to him now, I am afraid—not to such an intervention—because he will have the opportunity to speak if he wishes to do so.
	My daughter and her partner became parents by going to a well run, highly respected fertility clinic. Their second child will be a full sibling of their first child, my existing grandson by that marriage. The child is clever and articulate; I suspect that he may be the brightest of my grandchildren, but do not tell the others. My daughter and her civil partner have many friends who have been through the same process, and I have met several of them. They are typical of such couples: respectable, decent, honest and rather squarer than the prejudices held by many about such couples. They abhor the idea of people going on the black market to dishonest fertilisers—sperm donors—who already exist in this country. I know from pretty reliable anecdote that there are people in London who are prepared to be sperm donors informally, in their bathroom or kitchen, in the most disgusting way. They are unregulated, the health risks are enormous, and they can be accessed via the internet. If same-sex couples like my daughter and daughter-in-law are driven on to the black market for sperm donors, we will have a health disaster on our hands. But they may well feel driven to do that if the law is drawn in the way suggested in the debate, certainly in the last speech and in the eloquent opening speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, introducing the amendment to the amendment.
	I urge your Lordships to hold back from imposing what are really old prejudices, however conscientiously felt, on the modern world of civil partnerships. To those of us who have walked in and out of prisons, in and out of courtrooms whether as advocates or judges, who have been Members of the other place and have had large numbers of people coming to see us week after week privately about their personal problems, I say this: in the real world, what is offered by conscientious same-sex couples probably exceeds in quality the majority of what is offered even by heterosexual couples. There is no reason to discriminate against them. So I invite noble Lords to remember that we are in 2007—

Noble Lords: 2008.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I apologise, my Lords—2008, but it would also have done in 2007. An awful lot has happened since 1990, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, a few moments ago. We need to recognise the reality of our modern age.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords—

Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for permitting me to go before him. I should like to support this amendment and to speak to the amendments to which I have added my name. I do not consider this to be a question of selective morality. I am not a crusader—that is the last thing I am. I am not opposed to civil partners, and when I was a judge I made orders that handed children to same-sex parents. So I stand very much in the middle. I listened with interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said about his daughter, and good luck to her. I would not be opposed in any way to what she and her partner do.
	The amendments that I have tabled and the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, which I support, have the underlying purpose of trying to find a suitable form of words to express the view that good and supportive parenting is of great importance to a child about to be born, bearing in mind the purpose of the legislation with which we are concerned today, but the government amendment, which is welcome, does not go far enough. I know that I am not alone in this House in that view. The 1990 Act expressly required attention to the importance of the father figure in looking at the welfare of the child. In 2008, most of us recognise that a single-sex couple can provide a good upbringing for children—as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has pointed out—and that the specific drawing of attention to the need for a father may be more than is appropriate, although I do doubt it. We must not shut our eyes or shrink from speaking out about the advantages of both a male and female parent, and the possible disadvantages of bringing up a child without the influence of a person of the opposite sex to the parents. To recognise the advantages of a male and a female influence in a child's life in whatever way that may occur—I look more broadly than the mother and father; I have in mind godparents, uncles and aunts, and grandparents—and to look for a reassurance on that aspect of bringing up a child under the provisions of this Bill would not, in my view, breach any of the articles of the human rights convention.
	The Government are unnecessarily concerned about the impact of the Human Rights Act on these amendments, and indeed about the promotion of equality. This is a Government who have criticised the unnecessary application of the Human Rights Act from time to time, and on this occasion they should not be looking to put reasonable amendments into a straitjacket which the human rights convention does not impose. It also most certainly is not seen in other parts of the European community.
	The use of the words covering the advantages or disadvantages of having a father and a mother does not discriminate against the single parent or a same-sex couple. I discussed these amendments with a leading member of Stonewall, who is a lawyer. He laughed when I told him that this was considered to be discriminatory and contrary to human rights, and he could see no objection to the use of the words "mother" and "father". But the inclusion of those words alerts the would-be parents as well as the clinic to such advantages.
	There is another reason for objecting to the words "supportive parenting" without anything further. It would be wrong for the House to ignore the implications of a decision to delete the phrase, "the need ... for a father" and replacing it with the well-meaning phrase, "supportive parenting". The publication of the Bill with the intention to delete the phrase has already been picked up by fathers' organisations and was the lead article in the magazine McKenzie, sent to me by post from one of the fathers' organisations. It has already led to the suggestion that this Government do not think that fathers are important in a child's life. Is that really the message this Government want to send?
	I strongly support Amendment No. 111, to which I have also added my name. So far it has not been found, although some of us are trying have it put into the Children and Young Persons Bill, which is currently before the House. I hope that it will be included. It can only be found in the decisions of the courts, which are not easily available to the majority of people, but it is to be found in the Children Act 1995, and this is an occasion when we might usefully follow the Scottish lead. However, I did hear the Minister suggest that it would be put into statutory guidance; certainly for me, that would be sufficient.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I have the misfortune to disagree with the noble and Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I shall say only a few words about the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act.
	The Law Lords have a distinguished recent record of reading into legislation, wherever they can, equal rights for gay couples, even in areas where Parliament has not passed, for example, the Civil Partnership Act, of which I was originally a supporter in a Private Member's Bill. They have done so because of their commitment to equal treatment. The reasons powerfully expressed by my noble friend Lord Carlile about presumptions based on stereotypes of what must be a proper family in the context of children said all that needed to be said.
	Without going into all the reasons, I agree with the Government's legal advice that Article 8 of the European Convention, which protects the right to private life, read with Article 14, which means that that right must be enjoyed without direct or indirect discrimination, would give rise to a powerful case, although I would be more optimistic on the part of the claimant were it before our supreme judicial authority, the House of Lords, than I would before the European Court of Human Rights. This is because it is an international court dealing with a wide range of 47 countries and tends to give a wide margin of discretion to the national authorities. Our judges, being close to the social conditions and ethical values of our country, and showing themselves to be aware of the need to secure equal treatment without discrimination, would be much more likely to grant a declaration of incompatibility if the Bill were to stand as it is without Amendment No. 108. If one replaced it with Amendment No. 108A, there would be a serious risk of litigation leading to that result.
	The great advantage of the reference to "supportive parenting" is that it does not prejudge or seek to impose a standardised view of what the family ought properly to be. I also have experience, but of a slightly different kind from that of my noble friend Lord Carlile, of lesbians, in particular, being model and rather traditional parents. That simply illustrates that you cannot generalise. I know many terrible families, with terrible parents who are a father and a mother; and I know some extremely good parents who are same-sex couples. We must guard against the danger—I say this in the presence of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher—of a kind of Clause 28 being an indirect result of the legislation.

Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I support the government amendment. In doing so, I wish to address three issues.
	The first issue concerns the way in which the debate has been turned into a discussion about the value or non-value of fathers. We should all remember that fathers are intrinsically valuable. I said in a previous debate that I had a marvellous father. Difficult as he was, I would not have given him up for anything else. But to say that we are looking for every family to have a father denies the reality of our society as it stands today.
	I was rather concerned by some of the comments made, where I thought the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, linked cloning with same-sex families in terms of not having fathers. It suggests to me that the hundreds of non-conventional families out in our communities—and there are many kinds—are not respected. We demand respect of those families if we are going to support them and give them a good life.
	Secondly, I wish to consider the issue from the point of view of the child. The noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, mentioned that for too long children had been seen as the end rather than the means. For too long, issues about fertilisation have been about childless couples rather than about the children. We know that children do best when they feel secure, understand about their background and have no sudden traumas. Growing up in any family that gives them that kind of background will be helpful.
	There was debate earlier about research. The most scientifically rigorous studies of the development of children in same-sex families show that children raised in lesbian mother families are no more at risk of developing psychological problems than their counterparts from families with fathers present in their home. As I said earlier, a stable and loving home environment is the most important thing that children need. The evidence compiled by CARE and laid in the Library—I am a Christian—has been called to account by some of the country's most eminent experts in the area of fathering and parenting. They have seriously questioned the credibility of The Fatherhood Bibliography.
	These are no mean experts: they include Professor Michael Lamb from the Department of Social and Developmental Psychology at the University of Cambridge, and the director of the Centre for Family Research, Professor Susan Golombok. She advised the Rowntree Foundation on parenting and families, is an adviser to the Department of Health and undertakes research at Cambridge. Together with Fiona McCullen, she has followed 25 lesbian mother families from 2004 and 38 families headed by a single heterosexual mother. The quality of parenting in these families shows very little difference. They concluded that the presence or absence of fathers in a home from the outset does have some influence—this is true in single-parent families as well as other families—but has little consequence in later life.
	The reason I quote this research is not for self-indulgence but simply to point out that there is an alternative view to the one presented previously, which was deeply hurtful to at least 10 per cent of the outside population who saw this as a slight on their capacity to parent. I wish I had been able to make a speech as moving as the one of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in which he described people whom I know who have brought up children. I was speaking recently to two doctors, both working as paediatricians, who had been together for the past 15 years and have a seven year-old boy. They were deeply offended by the suggestion that their parenting was not as good as that of heterosexual couples.
	Let me turn now to parenthood and the question of fathers who walk away. Do not sperm donors walk away? Sometimes we want them to walk away, but we want to know who they are. We will come later in the Bill to the issue of children knowing their genesis. It is an important point because if female couples have sperm donated "on the side", in the ways described by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, they will have very little opportunity to know who that person was; they will not know about the quality of the sperm or the health of the person donating it.
	I want to concentrate on what the Bill is about, not this wider debate. Of course fatherhood is vital and many of us had fathers who we loved dearly. I said that to a colleague recently, who said to me, "But I didn't". We have to remember that not all men are good, which is another issue. I spend a great deal of my time dealing with the civil courts, as did the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and I know that the McKenzie magazine often depicts situations not quite as they might be. I am very fond of the McKenzie people for working for fathers. We are talking about a very small number of couples—significant but small. They are not going to undermine fatherhood in this country. What they are going to do is give children a good home and a stable and loving family, at least equal to their heterosexual counterparts. I am not saying they are more perfect but neither are they less perfect. They are like the rest of the community. They are, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, extraordinarily ordinary people who happen to want to raise a child healthily and properly through the system. I hope that noble Lords will support the Government's amendment and give those women the chance they want.

The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, this legislation is based on the promotion of equality and on a concept of non-discrimination. I wish we could rescue the word "discrimination". Its current use seems to imply the exercise of prejudice against other people based on stereotyping, which of course is appalling. I want to reinstitute "discrimination" as meaning coming to a careful and fine judgment based on the use of reason and through reflection on experience.
	It goes without saying that I, in common with other Members of your Lordships' House, recognise the abilities and commitment of many single parents. I do so from my own personal perspective. When my mother died as a result of very serious medical negligence, my father brought me up alone for a couple of years before he happily remarried, and he was quite outstanding. It also goes without saying that I recognise entirely the abilities and commitment of many single-sex couples, as spoken about so eloquently and with such passion, compassion and truthfulness as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, brought to our debate. But it does not logically follow that a phrase about including the need of that child for a father is discriminatory. It is a statement in our legislative processes about the general recognition that in an ideal world, most children need good fathers and good mothers.
	What does the omission signal? I travel quite often by public transport. Like the rest of your Lordships', I am bombarded with announcements. A man with a megaphone tells me that I am to keep my belongings with me at all times and that I must not smoke. I wonder what would happen if an announcement came across every station in London which said, "In the interests of equality, people are reminded that children do not necessarily need fathers". In other words, the omission is obviously going to be significant in what it signals to our society about the need for fathers. We can do that without in any sense being discriminatory and exercising prejudice based on stereotypes. That would be absolutely appalling.
	I support the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, in what I thought was a very telling remark. She pointed out that the public support for research and treatment is based on certain moral principles which are implicit but from time to time need to be explicit. Those moral principles include our understanding of what family life generally but not exclusively best includes. That is why I wish to support the amendment standing in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech.

Lord Winston: My Lords—

Lord Warner: My Lords, I do not think we have heard from the Labour Benches. I am prepared to give way to my noble friend Lord Winston. We are now presented on Report with a veritable banquet of options in terms of amendments to the 1990 Act for safeguarding the welfare of children to be born as a result of IVF. It is worth bearing in mind that none of these amendments changes the idea that the welfare of the child is a significant factor in whether to proceed to IVF treatment. That is still an integral part of this Bill. We are arguing about the extent to which we nuance the term "welfare of children". We have heard some very powerful speeches. I found the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, particularly moving.
	Before settling down to the exam paper, let me first congratulate the Government on listening to the concern that I and others expressed in Committee about the proposed amendments to the 1990 Act for a father. I am particularly pleased that they have moved away from what I can only describe as the positively Guardian-esque wording for a social network which they were toying with. I congratulate the Minister on his success in moving away from that wording.
	I have listened to the arguments and for the reasons I gave at Second Reading I still prefer Amendment No. 109, which leaves matters as they were in the 1990 Act. I shall not detain your Lordships by going through all those reasons again. I have not heard an overwhelmingly telling set of arguments for changing the wording. I have heard some arguments and those who put forward those arguments clearly felt passionate about them. I listened very carefully to what the Minister said about possible challenges under the Human Rights Act. He did not say that the Government's advice was that there would be challenges; he said, "There may be challenges". There may be challenges under a lot of legislation. Some of us who have signed quite a lot of certificates on Bills coming to this House recognise that this is not a 100 per cent foolproof certificate. We are giving our opinion, based on the evidence and legal advice presented, that the Bill conforms to the requirements of that Act, but there is no 100 per cent guarantee that there will not be challenges. I would like to see the legal advice which says. "There will be challenges. We are not confident that if you kept to the 1990 Act those challenges would be successful". However, I am a realist and I recognise—and some of us have been here before—that the Government will want to have their way, particularly after they have moved a good way to respond to some of the concerns expressed.
	I am not holding my breath about whether we will get through Amendment No. 109 so I have scanned the other amendments to see which take my fancy. The most effective alternative was that tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, which is Amendment No. 110. I always defer to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, on the European Convention on Human Rights—although it seems but yesterday, it was 10 years ago that I was writing policy papers on this for the Labour Party—but the main thing is that it balances rights and some rights are in conflict with each other. It does not give absolute rights to one person over another, but balances them. I would say—and I am not a lawyer, but I would like to hear the arguments against this—that Amendment No. 110 achieves that kind of balance. It is difficult for me to see, on the evidence so far, that that amendment in particular does not do a rather good job, and indeed does not in some ways improve the wording in the 1990 Act. I thought the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, made a powerful speech on that.
	There are some options for the Government. I ask my noble friend to pay serious attention to some of these issues, as I am sure he will. I do not want him to think I am churlish in not rushing to accept the Government's amendment—which, after all, is better than where we were before. At the very least, I ask that wording like that in Amendment No. 110 is reflected in the code of practice. The reason I say that is that the distinguishing feature of that amendment is that it provides a clear and elegant test that clinicians have to pay attention to in deciding on the welfare of the child. It has clarity about what clinicians have to consider in terms of the welfare of the child at the point of determining whether they go ahead with IVF. That is the great attraction of Amendment No. 110. I ask my noble friend at the very least to give us some assurances that that is the kind of clarity we would look for in the code of practice. However, if he really wanted to satisfy me, I would ask him to take away Amendment No. 110 and consider it further for Third Reading.

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, my name is also associated with Amendment No. 110 and I strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has just said. We have listened to a number of instances of how there might be incompatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights. Given that in certain other European countries there is no permission for people to get IVF unless they appear as a married couple in the first instance, I admit I find it puzzling that we should be accused of discrimination. I am pleased to be associated with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, on Amendment No. 110. I would have thought that its wording would have met virtually any test of discrimination that one could come up with.
	I was moved, as many other noble Lords have been, by the speech of my noble friend Lord Carlile. For the purposes of making my own position quite clear, I should say that I always supported the Civil Partnerships Act. I was strongly in its favour and members of my own family have very much benefited from it. Civil partnerships are not the issue at all; the central issue is whether the welfare of the child comes before that of either parent or both parents, whether they are in a heterosexual or a gay relationship. I remain unsatisfied on that point.
	My noble friend Lord Carlile said—and this was the one thing in his brave speech that I was slightly surprised by—that he believed the structure of what one might call traditional heterosexual marriage has more or less disappeared. There is one reason why I would raise a substantial question about that: the clear evidence, most recently emerging from the OECD study and others, of the growing involvement of young men in parenthood. Many of us remember, if we go back a generation or two, that fathers were a very distant member of the family, sometimes not much more than authority, sometimes even an authority that abused itself by its behaviour towards its spouse and its children. That has changed quite radically in my lifetime. I now constantly come across fathers who are sharing in all the basic issues of bringing up a child, from changing nappies to pushing prams to taking a huge share in their child's upbringing. It has been a striking transformation. Many young men today share far more than their fathers or grandfathers ever did, not only in housework but in raising children and in all domestic responsibilities.
	For me, that is the way forward. That is what I always thought equality between men and women was all about: the equality of sharing responsibilities as much as equality before the law. I would therefore be very sad if we began to diminish the importance of fatherhood. Here I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain; that is the message that would go out if we effectively said that a child does not need both a mother and a father, as Amendment No. 110 suggests. Why do I say that? Whether we like it or not, our society is made up of two genders: male and female. It is important that children should be brought up knowing something about the approaches and attitudes of those two genders. They are not the same, and thank God they are not. Women bring to society a set of different attitudes and often different objectives from those of men, and children need to try to understand them both.
	When I was Education Secretary, one of our main concerns was the shortage of male teachers in primary schools—a concern that remains. Why did we think that was so important? It was of no concern to us whether the young man was gay or heterosexual; what mattered was that he was a devoted and good teacher. We knew that those children needed male role models; in particular, children from broken or disadvantaged families benefited from a male role model. It did not necessarily have to be a father, but it was important that within the family structure there was someone who was, in a sense, in the role of a father and therefore gave that model to both male and female children.
	I would go further than that, however, and say that in our society the way ahead is clearly the sharing of responsibility. That is now extremely important if we are to sustain the concept of family life, whether—I repeat this, although I do not need to—in civil partnerships or in marriages of the more traditional kind. What matters is that the family reflects the contribution of both its male and its female members, and that both should recognise their responsibility to society as a whole.
	I was troubled, therefore, by the extent to which I have seen, particularly in education, the way in which boys in particular find themselves at a loss about quite what their role in society is. We know already that boys now attain less than they used to. They attain less, comparatively, than girls do at academic levels from the very beginning of primary school all the way through to A-levels and beyond. We are seeing the demotivation of boys. It is terribly important that we restore to them their motivation, and fatherhood is one of the key ways of doing that. I thought that much of the Government's legislation indicated that they shared that view, since they have never ceased to iterate the importance of the responsibility of fathers, as well as mothers, towards the children they generate.
	I strongly support Amendment No. 110. It is fair and even-handed, and gives the best possible chances to children for their welfare to be considered. I repeat: in every event the welfare of the child must come first. It is the very highest priority.

Lord Winston: My Lords—

Lord Alli: My Lords—

Lord Winston: Sorry, my Lords; I have given way once already. I speak from a rather unique position. In moving the amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, spoke with the experience of being chairman of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, spoke from her experience on the Bench. I first specialised in infertility care some 35 years ago. My chair, when it was eventually established, was the first in Britain devoted to infertility, and for 35 years of my time professionally, until I retired from the National Health Service, I sat daily in front of infertile women and men—most of the time, listening. My appointments did not last for just five, 10, 15 or 20 minutes. It would be rare for me not to listen to a couple for at least half an hour, and that was true right up to the time of my last clinic. In those consultations, what I saw at first hand, again and again, was something which your Lordships cannot have seen in quite the same way. I saw the pain, the lack of self-esteem, the sense of total failure, the sense of deep bereavement, the anger that these women in particular felt, the despair they showed and the depression they frequently had. Your Lordships, as a House, are asking me, as a doctor, to make a judgment in a situation like that as to who is a suitable parent. You are trying to enforce the unenforceable. This is not a practical proposition.

Lord Northbourne: My Lords—

Lord Winston: I am not going to give way, my Lords, I am afraid.
	I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for offering to give way on this occasion, but he said in Committee, just a little sarcastically—uncharacteristically—that he would try to help me as a clinician. Clinicians cannot be helped in this situation—this is a real entity in our clinical practice. To expect doctors ultimately to be policemen is not reasonable. It could be part of the code of practice, but I do not believe it could be a point of law. It simply makes bad law. Nor do I believe these warnings about the dreadful effect on our society. I think that they are simply untrue. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, made a telling comment. His experience has not in any way damaged his family, and the experience I shall describe in a moment has not damaged the family I want to speak about. I promise that I do not intend to go on too long.
	These tears of frustration can be mimicked; they can be synthesised; they can be real. Most of the time, believe me, they are deadly real, and the pain is real enough. But there is no way in the space of a clinic that you can deal with that situation except to listen, try to understand, do your best to empathise and do what you feel is responsible and right. There will be occasions when you clearly have an indication that it would be wrong to treat a couple—perhaps they come from a known family with child abuse problems. But that is extremely uncommon; it is very rare indeed.
	Fourteen years ago I saw a lady in my clinic who I came to just in the same way as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, did, whose view I would unquestionably have shared 30 years ago without the clinical experience I have had. I was determined not to treat this lady. She was HIV positive and it was not clear what her relationship with her partner was. I was sure that it would be wrong to treat her because of the child. But, because I wanted to be open-minded, I gave her another appointment for three weeks' time. Over the next months, I saw that lady five times in my clinic—I am not exaggerating—and came to the conclusion that she was worthy of treatment. In 1993-94, the diagnosis of HIV was a death sentence, but there was always a possibility that there might be treatment around the corner. It was becoming clear that it might be possible to deliver babies to lower the risk.
	I presented the case at our regular meeting in my clinic. When we have a clinic meeting, everybody attends, including the people who clean the clinic, because we want a general view of what everybody feels. Nobody is excluded. Eighty-five members of my clinic turned up for the discussion on this patient, and without a single exception, nobody supported my view that this woman should be treated. They were all prejudiced against the idea because, to them, treating somebody with HIV was abhorrent. I could not treat her single-handedly, and I worked on my team for six months. By the end of that period, it was interesting to see a massive change of view. We treated that lady, whom some of them thought might die or abandon her child. That lady is alive today and the child, who is a teenager, is well.
	In her wonderful speech, the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, made a point about same-sex couples, but this matter goes much wider than that. The biggest single issue in our society is the woman in her late 30s and early 40s. This is increasingly common as women gain skills and education and contribute to society in all sorts of ways. It is not easy for these women to find a partner to live with, but they need treatment because their ovaries are running out of eggs—two or three a day, on average, according to the biological clock. By the age of 40 to 42, they cannot actually conceive. By the age of 42, something like two-thirds of women are seriously infertile. The chance of getting pregnant with IVF by the age of 45 is well under 4 per cent on average. It is not unreasonable, therefore, for these women to present to a clinic without a partner. What are they to do? What is the doctor to do? Of course I agree that the question of the father who gives the sperm is important, but it has nothing whatever to do with this debate. That is about another amendment—the anonymity, or otherwise, is something that we must separate from this argument.
	In this amendment, the best we can do is try to find something which at least raises the issue to the clinics and to those counselling in them, and recognises that there is a problem. To my mind, the Government's amendment does that admirably, and I shall support it.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for interrupting him from a sedentary position. However, I was deeply concerned that a lawyer, above all, should say that which is not legally correct and which he must know is not legally correct. Civil partnership is not marriage. That was made explicitly clear by the Government during the passage of the Civil Partnership Act. Indeed, if they had declared it to be marriage, it might not have been passed by this House. It is a very great pity that the noble Lord should have said something which, as a lawyer, he ought to have known was not true.
	The noble Lord also said that the campaign for responsible fatherhood was lost a couple of generations ago. If that is true, then let us fight the campaign again and win it. Let us not simply say, "It's gone, it's lost, forget it, it's a new world". The noble Lord also said that science could change ethics. No, my Lords, science cannot change ethics. Ethics are ethics, morals are morals. What is right is right, what is wrong is wrong, and science cannot change that. If that were so, we would be living in a morass, in a world of moral relativism. If there is one thing that is going wrong in the world at the moment, it is that we are losing sight of the immutability of certain rights and wrongs and ethics.
	We are all citing personal experience, and none more so than the noble Lord, Lord Winston. I would have been happier about some of what he had said had he not described those of his team who had disagreed with him as prejudiced. It might just have been that they took a different view from him. They might even have considered him prejudiced. It is possible. We have to be careful not to allege that those who take a different view from us are doing so out of prejudice, when they may be doing so from a moral standpoint or from their experience of life. I should say that I have been a single parent—albeit not for very long—after my youngest child was born and my wife was desperately ill. I found myself cast in that role for some months, with a newborn babe, a five year-old and a seven year-old. Do not tell me that single parenting is difficult. I know that well enough.
	This at legislation—and particularly this part of the Bill—is about those circumstances in which a child is conceived by IVF through the use of technology that has been licensed by the state. Therefore the state has a responsibility of fatherhood. The child would not have been conceived without that. Indeed, those technologists involved in the conception have a responsibility of fatherhood too. We are tending to forget that.
	Under those circumstances, there is no doubt in my mind, that, in general—and I emphasise, in general—a child's life prospects are better if it grows up in a family, with a father and a mother, than if it lacks either of them. In general, these are indisputable facts. Of course, there are exceptions. There are thoroughly bad fathers, thoroughly bad mothers and extraordinarily good single parents. Of course, there are. However, we can only deal with it in general terms.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, implied, that this Bill, as drafted, tends to marginalise fathers. That is true, but it is not the worst of it. This Bill concentrates so much on the alleged right of a mother to have a child that it forgets the right of a child to have a pair of parents—a mother and a father.
	As for human rights law, do not children have human rights? Does not an unborn child have rights? Indeed, perhaps one could extend it to the concept that a child not yet conceived, has a right? I think it does. It has a human right to a father and a mother. We should ensure that we do all we can to see that that is carried through.
	Amendment No. 108A rebalances the Bill, not so much in favour of mothers, or of fathers, or of parents, but in favour of the child. Surely, it is to the child that we owe the responsibility, as it is under this legislation that the child will be conceived. Therefore, collectively, we are, in that sense, its parent.

Lord Alli: My Lords, like a moth to a flame, I rise to support the Government's Amendment No. 108 and to set out my opposition to the subsequent amendments. Before doing so, I would like to say what a privilege it has been to read and listen to the debates in this Bill. If or those outside this Chamber or in another place wish to see justification of why we are here, I would ask them to look at the work done on this Bill.
	It is easier to create legislation for the kind of world we wish to live in than it is to create laws for the world that we actually live in. The Government have done well in tabling their amendment and have tried to find a way through the issues of the clinic's obligation to consider a male role model, while keeping the child's best interest at heart. That means supporting good parents regardless of their sex.
	Equality for lesbian and gay people in Britain is a principle now established in law in a range of areas. It is an issue that this House has considered, in detail, in many previous debates and supported time and time again—not least when it approved civil partnership affording same-sex couples equal rights to those of married ones, a move which recognised the long-term commitment made by so many same-sex couples.
	Provisions in this Bill would give greater legal recognition to same-sex partners and, more importantly, greater protection to their children. I read the speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, on Second Reading and have utmost respect for much of what she said. However, on this single point, I disagree with her. In my view, consideration of the potential need for a father should not outweigh the assessment of whether potentially a lesbian gay couple would make good parents or whether a single woman would make a good parent.
	No one is trying to substitute the biological father. The Bill is simply trying to allow same-sex couples and single women to have equal access to fertility clinics instead of taking alternative informal routes. We argued that very point in this Chamber when looking at the access to goods and services Bill. It is with some regret that I read some of the claims made during Second Reading about the endurability of same-sex relationships and the suitability of lesbian and gay people as parents.
	Let me briefly attempt to put the record straight. Many thousands of couples in long-term, stable relationships have formed civil partnerships but no dissolution figures exist. It is too soon. There is no credible evidence because it is too soon to suggest that they will be disproportionate to the rest of the population.
	This Bill will, for the first time, enable two women in a committed relationship to consider starting a family with—and this is the important point—the support of the fertility clinic. That is at the heart of the issue. The Bill would allow the women to start their family with the support of the fertility clinic. The present requirement upon such clinics is to support the potential need for a father before granting the treatment. That can encourage some women to make informal arrangements outside the protection of formal healthcare and that should be avoided.
	This is a narrow and specific question, not a broader one of fatherhood. No one is trying to replace the father. It will not deter many of these women from having children. It will simply drive them away from the services they pay for and have a right to expect.
	I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that while I respect her argument in principle and her motives in practice, she may have inadvertently ventured down a dangerous and rocky path. The noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, has also put her name to the amendment and spoken already. I have spent many hours across this Chamber arguing the rights and wrongs of same-sex couples, gay rights, gay men and lesbian relationships—the debate has been well argued. I fear that it is that debate which is contaminating this Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, is well practised in setting down persuasive arguments as to why equality should be denied to homosexual couples. I fear that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is in danger of having some of her arguments hijacked.
	The world is changing and will continue to change and I am pleased to say that, on many occasions, this House has changed with it. If we were to adopt the proposals put before us today, we would demonstrate that change in a very pragmatic way. The Government have listened to all that we have said and I hope that this amendment will succeed. We should lead and not always follow.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords—

Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I have an amendment in this group and have waited patiently.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Of course.

Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I degrouped my Amendment No. 111A so that we could have a good debate on it and I would have a chance to get back at the Minister, but he has completely undershot me by giving me everything I wanted in his opening speech. I shall therefore now speak to Amendments Nos. 108B and 108C, and Amendment No. 111A will come up in its proper place in the Bill.
	In speaking to this group, I would like to step back for a moment, although I will not speak for long because I think your Lordships have probably had enough.

Noble Lords: Hear, hear!

Lord Northbourne: My Lords, every successful human society has some sort of social structure in place and sanctions to ensure, as far as possible, the effective nurture of its children. In some countries, that is done by the village or tribe. In others, it is done by grandparents. In a few, the children are mainly raised by the state. But the communist formula is—and always has been—that both parents should take principal responsibility for the children they bring into the world, sometimes helped by the state.
	Over the past 50 years, in the context of what we are talking about in the Bill, we have to realise that important changes have taken place in our own society to which we have not yet fully adapted our parenting pattern. Today, more than a quarter of the nation's children are raised by a single parent and more than 40 per cent can expect their parents' marriage or partnership to break up before they leave school. Grandparents and kin often live far away, but only a small, yet important, minority of parents are failing their children. I do not suggest for a moment that those are the committed single-sex couples.
	This group of amendments is important not because it is about fathers and mothers but because it is about a question of principle. How can we ensure, as far as possible, that children born through IVF get the parenting and family life that they need? The Government have made a good shot at it by adding the words "supportive parenting" and I support government Amendment No. 108 in that connection, but it does not go far enough.
	I will first speak to Amendment No. 108C and then to my Amendment No. 108B in this group. I believe in the importance of both a father figure and a mother figure in a child's life. Men and women are equal, as several noble Lords have said, but they are different. There are different talents, skills and qualities that they can bring to the parenting of a child. There is plenty of research to show that children as they grow up benefit from having the love and example of a woman and a man who are both committed to caring for them. For that reason, my Amendment No. 108C and others in this group would ensure that the Bill covers the advantages to the child of having a mother figure and a father figure in their lives.
	The noble Lord, Lord Warner, wisely suggested that this matter could be dealt with in guidance and I draw the attention of the House to the fact that the existing guidance, at paragraph G.3.3.3, states:
	"Where the child will have no legal father, the centre should assess the prospective mother's ability to meet the child's/children's needs and the ability of other persons within the family or social circle willing to share the responsibility for those needs".
	If no reference to the father is included in the Bill, that will fall. Will the Minister assure us that some comparable guidance in relation to both a father and a mother will be included in the guidance?
	I now turn to my Amendment No. 108B, which suggests that the words "and family life" should be added after the words "supportive parenting". A survey of research carried out by Charles Desforges, which the Government have accepted, has shown that family life has a major influence on the child's educational outcomes and his life chances even after discounting all other factors. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child lays down that all children have the right to family life. I know that this Government have not signed up to the convention, but it is right to draw attention to the value of family life for a child, not in a restrictive definition of family life—that must depend on the child's needs and family circumstances—but at least a family life in which the child would have the opportunity to feel safe, have fun, to learn to interact in a secure environment with friends and relatives and to learn from them how to learn. That is why I tabled Amendment No. 108B.
	Finally, I recognise that the inability to have a child, to which the noble Lord, Lord Winston, so movingly referred, often causes great pain and is emotionally damaging to the woman concerned. I suggest that in the majority of cases the conditions on which some of us have suggested the centre should make an assessment do not necessarily imply that that woman is denied a child by IVF. They put in place certain sacrifices that women must make for the sake of the child if they are to qualify for IVF treatment. After all, that is no different from the commitment that most of us make when we decide to have a child.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I will be very brief. I support government Amendment No. 108 and oppose the other amendments not because I do not believe that a father is important in the life of a child; I very much do. I am familiar and agree with most of the research to that effect, but I gently suggest that it is not relevant. Today's debate is not about the virtues of a particular form of family. We are looking at this legislation and seeking to pass amendments in order to determine the interface between a clinician, as my noble friend Lord Winston said, and a prospective patient seeking treatment.
	Let us suppose that amendments other than the Government's amendment are passed today. What will happen? Heterosexual couples remain unaffected. We are obviously not going to prohibit the rights of single women and gay and lesbian couples to have fertility treatment because they already have that treatment and almost everyone has said that they expect and wish that situation to continue. The likelihood of single women or indeed a gay couple re-presenting themselves to the clinician as part of a heterosexual couple is impossible unless they are manipulating the legislation. So what have we achieved should we pass any of the amendments other than the government amendment? Heterosexual couples, single women and gay couples continue as before. However, we were told in several of the contributions today, which I respect, that we would be sending out a signal. What does that mean?
	It has come to me in the course of the debate that we do not expect the world to be any different. We do not expect to change anything, but we feel better because we have put our views on the face of the Bill. That could be empty, bad law or rhetoric, but it would also do something else. It would send out a signal, which is what worries me most. The signal that would be received by the children mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne—the one child in four currently in a family without a father—is that we believe those families are inferior and those children are second-class children. As a result, we would be stigmatising them in the name of some family form that we wish them to have, but that they do not have, and cannot, as children, choose to have. Is that what we want to do? To stigmatise children with an amendment that will have no practical effect on any presenting client, but will impact on the children that may result. I cannot believe noble Lords want that to happen. I hope, as a result, that noble Lords will support the Government's amendment, which responds to the feeling of this House in Committee, but reject the other amendments.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, we know that a father has a special interest in his children. I proposed the clause that is now sought to be deleted from the1990 Act, so I have a certain filial affection for it.
	First, on the moving account of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, I should like to say that his eight-ninths of a grandchild apparently came under the existing law perfectly satisfactorily. Secondly, the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, said that we do not at all underestimate the value of a father. That is what this clause in the 1990 Act does: it just points to the value of a father as a factor to be taken into account in the welfare of the child. Everyone is agreed—government and all the others who have spoken—that the welfare of the child is something that the clinician has to take into account. I know that it is not always easy, but it is something that the clinician has to take into account. All the 1990 Act says, and I think that the noble Baroness's remark about it in a sense supports this, is that there is a value to the welfare of a child in that child having a father.
	The guidance has been referred to. All that the clinician has to do currently is take the guidance into account. This guidance, which has been in existence for some time under the present Administration, seems to me to express that in a very cogent and practical way. Like the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I prefer the amendment that leaves things as they are. In the mean time, I will certainly consider supporting Amendment No. 108A.

Baroness Barker: My Lords, at this late stage I rise simply to make a few points which have not yet been made in the debate. The only issue that matters is what is in the best interests of children. In determining that, many of us rely not only on our own experience but on the available research. Insofar as people have quoted it extensively, the fatherhood bibliography produced by Christian Action Research and Education has been a very successful piece of propaganda. It is a very selective document which moulds together peer-reviewed research, grey research and opinion. As a piece of propaganda it has been effective; it has set up precisely the debate that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York talked about. It has led us to believe that we are talking about conflicting rights, when we are not.
	I do not believe that any heterosexual couples will be denied IVF treatment as a result of the Government's proposals. I do not believe that there will be fewer children born with fathers as a result of IVF. We are talking about recognising the truth of modern-day life, as my noble friend Lord Carlile said so eloquently. If as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said in her opening remarks, her amendment, in its intended simplicity, is taken to mean that treatment will not be given unless there is a father and mother, then, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, said, people will be reduced to trying to find a way either of circumventing the law or of presenting themselves in an untrue fashion. What the Government's amendment attempts to do is recognise a factor that has so far not been mentioned to any great extent—that all children benefit from stability and security in their upbringing. The Government's amendments attempt to enable people who intend to become parents to become good parents, and to do so from the start by presenting themselves honestly for treatment.
	I have to ask those who have presented these amendments two questions which I have asked at every stage of the Bill but to which I have not yet had an answer. They are questions that have to be answered before we consider these amendments any further. We are told that the passage of these amendments is likely to mean that people will seek to go abroad to clinics that exist on the edges of the law, or that they will simply make private arrangements. Each course of action contains within it a degree of risk not only to the mother but to the health of the child. If the proposals would also have the effect of dehumanising the donors, to use the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, then I would ask whether that is the effect that the movers of the amendments wish—or are they seeking to put forward a set of proposals that would be wholly counterproductive, as I believe they would be?
	My final point has not been made by anybody else in this debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, quite rightly set us off on our discussions this afternoon by talking about the importance of principle. Part of principle is precedent in law. I ask noble Lords whether they have appreciated the fact that, in trying to establish a principle—which is what the noble Baroness is trying to do, and for good reasons—it is just possible that we may set a precedent of denying a person health treatment? This would not be on the basis of their need, or the way they present themselves as a patient, or even the way they behave, but because they are a member of a minority group within our population. That is a dangerous principle and a dangerous precedent—one that I would not wish this House to set in law.

Lord Patten: My Lords, I reflected as I listened to the speech by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, how right he was to say that we seem to live in a world where one set of human rights suddenly comes forward to trump another set of perceived human rights. That will cause us great difficulty, going forward. Equally, in the moving and challenging speech of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, who was, as always, stalwart against discrimination, I reflected that, sometimes, as one becomes more vigorous against discrimination in one direction, one can just see incipient discrimination coming from another quarter. That is the only point I wish to make; I shall not be repeating any of the remarks that I made in Committee—not one jot, nor one iota.
	It seems to me that the Government, either by design or well-meaning accident, are now busy deconstructing the meaning of fatherhood. That is where incipient anti-father prejudice could well be creeping in. This flies in the face of the attempts by the Government, which I support and to which I pay tribute, to encourage fathers to pay maintenance, to take paternity leave, and to continue contact with their children after divorce, if that should happen.
	This approach also flies in the face of the principle of non-discrimination. Here is where I would like the noble Lord, Lord Alli, to think as deeply about what I am saying as I try to think about what he says. By appearing—and appearances matter to the outside world—to be a bit anti-father, and appearing to fail to give proper respect to both sexes, the principle ultimately fails to hold equality of esteem for parenting between the sexes.
	I do not know how much time the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister, who inherited this Bill, has to give to its wider and longer social implications. He seems to me as a complete outsider to be an exemplary father, yet his own Government's legislation in this context is likely, whether by design or because of unforeseen and unintended consequences, to lead little by little to the steady deconstruction of the very meaning and importance of the word "father" and thus the reality of fatherhood, and to the incipient devaluation of the role of fatherhood, by the signals that this legislation is giving from this place to the outside world about the meaning of fatherhood.
	I simply cannot believe—as I predict will be seen—that the country at large supports the removal of the need for a father. That removal sends a clear signal to men that the Government ultimately do not value the unique role of fathers in a child's life, let alone the message that the Government wish to promote legislation that might turn out to be seen by later generations as discriminatory against men.

Lord Selsdon: My Lords, I do not intend to regale your Lordships with my study of the parenting of a range of mammals; I simply wish to make a logical suggestion. If we accepted the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, who is one of my colleagues on the committee, and added to it "and/or supportive parenting", we would solve the problem.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I rise in the briefest of contributions to support the Government. In many debates we have made a plea for honesty about genetics and what we do. The amendment simply tidies up and makes this legislation compatible with the most honest of today's practices. If we do not allow that, two things may well happen. The Government are changing the burden of proof on doctors, probably from the criminal standard to the civil. I fear that there will be gold-plating by clinics. They will say, "It's on the face of the Bill that we cannot treat you if you do not have your one man in tow". We will go back to the days of men being dragged into clinics—perhaps for money—and pretending that they are in a supportive and loving relationship.
	I would also caution your Lordships that it is not honest to transpose the research from broken families and the outcomes for their children on to the outcomes for children who are conceived through an infertility clinic after incredibly careful consideration by people who are desperate to give the very best upbringing possible to those children and who have invested a huge amount even before they conceive. That is completely different from unplanned pregnancies and broken relationships where the father has been abusive or whatever. I therefore make a plea to your Lordships that, if we are to be honest, this is the only amendment that we can pass. Other bits can go in guidance and can be helpful, but the Bill has to reflect what is actually happening today, not turn the clock back and force people to be dishonest.

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, let me say at the outset that the amendment and our proposals are not motivated by any attack on fathers or the concept of fatherhood, as I clearly outlined in Committee. The Government recognise very clearly the extremely important role that fathers can and do play in their children's lives, and the consequences that can follow when relationships break down. There is no requirement in the law as it stands that there must be a father or any man involved in the upbringing of a child. The outcome intended here is to change the law, as was eloquently described just now. We need to ensure that we have a clear and transparent law. There should, as my noble friend said, be no pressure on clinicians such as me. We may be good at interpreting science within a framework of regulation, not a law which is not transparent and meaningless. That point was eloquently raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, who said that the law was "ineffective" and "wishy-washy".
	Nor do I support the concept of back-street impregnation which we heard about earlier or perverse incentives in relation to this unclear law. The Government have put huge effort into finding the right words and being as transparent as possible. We strongly believe that it is the quality of parenting and not the gender of parents that counts. The amendment is for supportive parenting. Amendment No. 108A, which would put the words
	"a father and a mother"
	in the Bill, would place an additional hurdle, as we have heard throughout the debate.
	I conclude on Amendment No. 110 on what might go into the code of practice. We would not accept such wording in the guidance for the same reasons that we will not accept it in the legislation. Therefore, it is the Government's conclusion that they will not support the amendments to the government amendments.

Baroness Deech: My Lords, I shall respond briefly. I am motivated by the fact, of which I am pretty sure, that the public wish us to put some ethical underpinning to the enormous leap forward in science. As for statements by noble and learned Lords about human rights, I point out that we will be in a minority in Europe if we change the law in the way that the Government wish. I point out also that "private life" and particularly "family life" have been interpreted as something that is already in existence. There is no human right to have a baby. The only body that is in danger of discrimination is the National Health Service.
	The Government must regret ever having started along the line of amending Section 13, which works so well, because they have opened up a hornets' nest. It was allowing more and more single and lesbian women to access treatment with no problem at all. Whichever way the House goes tonight, the decision is likely to upset members of the public and to devalue fathering. Unlicensed sperm donation on the side has been going on and I am sure that it will continue. But we should remember that whichever amendment we go for, it will be only one of the factors that the clinician has to consider.
	Every civilised country draws lines about the circumstances in which it is right to reproduce. I have not heard any noble Lord argue today that, for example, it is a breach of human rights to refuse IVF to a 14 year-old or to refuse it to two twins—echoing a case in the newspapers recently. We know that there is an element of discretion and that there are certain underlying values and structures which are largely worthy of consideration. The same applies to the presence of a mother and father. Indeed, in one judgment, the House of Lords took note of the difference between biological and same-sex parenting and preferred to give custody to the biological mother.
	The trouble with the amendments is that they are predictive, but we cannot predict good or supportive parenting. There are hundreds of thousands of divorces in this country which all started with two would-be parents promising to live together forever and making commitments to bring up their children. We know that one cannot predict and that breakdown happens. This is not something that clinicians, or anybody else, can lay down rules about and perceive. That being the case, and because I passionately believe that the advances in science need to be acceptable to the public, I would like to test the opinion of the House on this amendment.

Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I believe I am right in thinking that I have to withdraw—or not withdraw—my amendments before this amendment.

Noble Lords: No!

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the noble Baroness is correct in seeking to test the opinion of the House at this stage.

Lord Geddes: My Lords, before putting the Question regarding Amendment No. 108A, I remind noble Lords that if it is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 108C due to pre-emption.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 108A) shall be agreed to?
	*Their Lordships divided: Contents, 93; Not-Contents, 165.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
	[Amendments Nos. 108B and 108C, as amendments to Amendment No. 108, not moved.]

Lord Geddes: My Lords, before putting the Question on Amendment No. 108, I remind noble Lords that if it is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 109 to 110A inclusive because of pre-emption.

On Question, Amendment No. 108 agreed to.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I should inform noble Lords that dinner-time business has been postponed. We shall now move directly to the Statement. I suggest that Report stage begin again not before 9.25 pm.

Northern Rock

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Statement is as follows:
	"With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on Northern Rock. The House will understand that it was necessary to issue a statement to the markets with our proposals before the start of trading this morning in the usual way. Copies of that statement and the accompanying Treasury press release are available in the Vote Office. "I shall next week publish proposals for strengthening depositor protection and the supervision of banks. Today, let me set out how we intend to meet the previously stated objectives of the Government, the Financial Services Authority and the Bank of England with regard to Northern Rock, as well as the background against which we make our proposals. The proposals I set out today for a commercial solution to Northern Rock—underpinned by Government support—best meet our objectives of protecting taxpayers and depositors, and maintaining financial stability. I will set out the reasons for this in greater detail."I can confirm that the existing government guarantee arrangements to depositors will remain in place. Savers' money remains safe and secure. As the House will recall, at the end of last summer, following the problems in the US mortgage market, Northern Rock found it increasingly difficult and then impossible to raise the billions of pounds it needed to finance its business. It was completely exposed. It had no Plan B. Northern Rock was forced to ask the Bank of England for support to allow it to continue to operate. The Government agreed to that support because, in the then prevailing conditions, there was a serious risk that other parts of the banking system would be destabilised. That support was successful and prevented further contagion. That decision was wholeheartedly supported by right honourable and honourable Members of this House."As the House knows, the Government have announced guarantee arrangements for depositors' money saved with Northern Rock. In October and December we also provided further guarantees and funding arrangements in order to give the company the time it needed to try and find a solution to its problems, as I informed the House. At that time I said that I would ask Northern Rock to come back with proposals no later than mid-February this year. These guarantee arrangements, including the extension in December, have not been called and there has been no cost to the taxpayer. However, these arrangements remain necessary and will be in place for the time being. Equally, Bank of England lending is secured against Northern Rock's assets, such as high quality mortgages, which are assessed by the Financial Services Authority as being of good quality. Again, there has been no cost to the taxpayer."Let me make it clear that the Government's position—which I reiterated most recently in the Treasury Select Committee on 10 January—is that a private-sector solution for Northern Rock is the preferable route for meeting our three objectives, but this cannot be at any cost. If it does not prove possible to secure a proposal that meets our stated objectives and conditions, it would be necessary to take Northern Rock into temporary public ownership. For that reason it would be irresponsible to rule it out."Despite intensive efforts over the past few months, and as a result of uncertain market conditions across the world, it has proved impossible for Northern Rock to find a purely commercial solution. In the autumn, market conditions were such that banks became increasingly reluctant to lend on terms that would have been acceptable. As the House will be aware, right across the world, banks are reporting substantial losses. Whilst conditions are better now than they were before Christmas, they remain difficult and the Government's financial advisers believe that there is no chance of achieving a private-sector deal backed entirely with private finance in the near future."Before I turn to my proposal, let me first deal with the question of putting the company into administration, as some have suggested. Administration would mean that control would immediately pass to an administrator who would look to realise the value of the company's assets which, under current market conditions, would amount to a fire sale. It could also exacerbate current market turbulence, and costs would be significant. I have therefore rejected such a proposal. "My proposal today is one in which Northern Rock is owned and run in the private sector as a commercial bank, and where the Government provide a backstop guarantee to make private financing possible in the current market conditions. I believe that this company should be managed with private-sector disciplines and management, provided that we can do so on terms that properly protect taxpayers' interests."Let me now set out in greater detail how this proposal will meet our objectives of protecting the taxpayer, protecting consumers and promoting financial stability. Northern Rock would raise the funds it needs from investors by selling assets. The Treasury would guarantee payment to those investors in the event that the assets were insufficient to meet its obligations, for which Northern Rock would pay the Treasury a fee. In this arrangement, shareholders and other providers of capital in Northern Rock accept the first risk, with the Government acting as a backstop."According to the Financial Services Authority, Northern Rock has a good quality loan book. In normal market circumstances, such a guarantee would be unnecessary. However, in the current circumstances, to attract a wide range of investors on acceptable terms that protect the public interest, a guarantee is necessary."If this proposal is accepted, it would mean that all of the Bank of England's current loan facilities for the company are repaid in full, with interest, upfront, on completion of the transaction."Our willingness to put that support in place depends entirely on the terms on which a deal can be struck. I will authorise support for the private sector only if the public interest will be better served than through taking the company into temporary public ownership."In addition, any acceptable proposal would also need to comply with clear conditions. The company will need to demonstrate how it can operate sustainably in future without any government support and we will favour proposals that reach that point quickly. New private sector capital will be needed, so that the private sector—not the taxpayer—takes the burden of risk for commercial success or failure. As long as the Government continue to provide a backstop guarantee, we will require restrictions on any sale of the company and on dividend payments."To allow that financing structure to be explored, the Treasury and the Bank of England will make arrangements to extend the Bank of England's loan facility until 17 March, by when we must submit a restructuring plan to the European Commission."The proposals would involve private sector participation in the financing of Northern Rock and would also provide the taxpayer with the ability to share in the potential upside returns, as business conditions improve, in return for the financial support provided to the company."The Government will make our decision as to which proposal we can, as provider of support accept, and, with the Bank of England and the Financial Services Authority, we will consider proposals received by 4 February from potential interested parties, including the company itself."Any proposals as a result of either that support or public ownership are highly likely to need state aid clearance and will therefore be dependant on approval by the European Commission. "The Government have already started discussions with the company and with the two parties who have publicly stated an interest in the company. The Government are also ready to have discussions with any other interested parties."Let me make it clear: if the solution that I have outlined proves not to be possible on terms that protect the public interest, a temporary period of public ownership will be necessary. Legislation is being prepared, should it be necessary, and would make provision for an independent valuer to decide on the level of compensation to be made to shareholders. The principles for assessing that compensation would be based on the company not receiving public support and that all specific financial assistance from the Bank of England or the Government had come to an end. That is set out more fully in the statement to the markets today."It is for the independent Office for National Statistics to determine whether Northern Rock is classified to the public sector in the national accounts. Any liabilities classified to the public sector would be temporary and backed by significant assets and do not represent any meaningful measure of fiscal sustainability. The code for fiscal stability—set out in legislation passed by this House—provides for such situations. We would also address the future of the Northern Rock Foundation, in the event of temporary public ownership."The proposal that I have outlined today meets our stated objectives of protecting the taxpayer, protecting depositors and maintaining financial stability. Northern Rock got into the difficulties it faced because of global market conditions. The Government agreed to Bank of England support for Northern Rock because of the destabilising risk to the rest of the financial system, and also provided guarantees to protect depositors. Both objectives have been met. We now need to reach a solution which leaves the greatest risk with the company yet will allow taxpayers to profit from any future sale."Ideally, the best solution would have been a private-sector solution without any government support, but in current uncertain market conditions that is not possible. Administration, with the resulting fire sale of the company's assets, would not be in the public interest. Temporary public ownership—nationalisation—remains an option. However, even those who advocate that now see it as a stepping stone to returning Northern Rock to the private sector that would involve government support. In the mean time, it would still require continuing financial support and it would leave the public sector bearing all the risk. The proposal that I have outlined today is the right one. It provides a government guarantee that enables a commercial solution in which the private sector raises finance and bears risk. It also offers the prospect of withdrawing government support more quickly and is therefore most likely to meet our stated objectives and conditions. I commend this Statement to the House".
	My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement on Northern Rock made in another place. The Minister last repeated a Statement on Northern Rock two months ago. How does today's Statement differ from that of two months ago? Courtesy of some leaked documents at the time, we knew even then that the Government's advisers were talking about the continuation of government support beyond an initial deal. The Government did not deny that then but hid behind the assertion that a potential private sector deal could not be,
	"transacted in the full glare of publicity".—[Official Report, 19/11/07; col. 698.]
	Far from the "full glare of publicity", we have had the deep darkness of Hades surrounding this deal—except when the Government have chosen to brief the press, as they have been frantically doing all weekend.
	Two months ago, the Minister assured the House that the Government would protect the interests of taxpayers. We now know that the Government have made no progress in protecting the interests of taxpayers in the last two months. There is no private sector deal at present. In desperation the Government have agreed to continue to use taxpayers' money to support the Northern Rock balance sheet in the hope that there might be a deal to be done. As a result of the Statement, taxpayers will continue to bear significant risk, but for longer—and that is certainly no improvement on the risk profile at present.
	Can the Minister explain why the Government are now prepared to keep taxpayers' money behind Northern Rock for an unspecified time? The Governor of the Bank of England was very clear in relation to the possible Lloyds TSB transaction last summer, which required some £30 billion at bank rate for a mere two years. The governor said:
	"I don't think that it took the Chancellor very long to recognise that this was something which central banks don't do, it's also something that governments don't do"—
	except that U-turns on principles are exactly what this Government do all the time.
	Those clever bankers who advise the Government may have come up with something that sounds as if the debt will be refinanced. However, through the guarantees, all the risk remains with the taxpayer. We had expected something more substantive in reducing the risk to taxpayers' money from this Statement.
	The Statement refers to the proposals being a "commercial solution" to Northern Rock, although later they are described as not being a "purely" commercial transaction. What the Government are proposing is a million miles from the commercial solution. It is a political solution that uses taxpayers' money to avoid the truth that there is no genuinely commercial solution available. Further, today's Statement gives us no real information. How much money will be tied up in these new guaranteed loan notes, and for how long? Is it just the existing lending or will even more taxpayers' money be going in under cover of guaranteed loan notes? The Statement talks of arrangement fees and expenses, which the BBC's business editor estimated this morning could amount to £1 billion at market rates. Will the Minister tell us what the fees and expenses are expected to total, and how Northern Rock will pay them? Will the Government have to lend Northern Rock even more money for that purpose?
	This morning's press release said that a terms sheet of the principal terms and conditions will be provided to interested parties shortly. Can the Minister tell us when that will be? We know that "shortly" is one of those words in the Government's lexicon that can assume a variety of meanings. More importantly, I can assure the Minister that we on these Benches, and I expect those on the Benches of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, as well, are very interested in this. Will the Minister commit to making the terms sheet available to Parliament?
	Two months ago, the Government talked about Northern Rock financing in terms of maintaining wider financial stability. Can the Minister explain how Northern Rock now impacts on wider financial stability? When the Government first guaranteed the retail deposits, they brought to an end the run on Northern Rock. What other impact could Northern Rock now have on financial stability? Are there any remaining financial stability issues? Is it not true that the only real issue left is the Labour Party's political interest in avoiding the truth that its strategy and actions for Northern Rock have failed?
	While we must never forget that it was Northern Rock's reckless management that caused the problems in the first place, we must not let this fig leaf of an announcement get away from the fact that the tripartite arrangements invented by the Prime Minister failed their first real test. The Government have made noises about improvements that they will make for the future, but they have done nothing. They have not yet explained exactly what went wrong last summer, and they have not published the correspondence between the tripartite authorities. They have told us that they have identified which committee room in the Cabinet Office will be used for future financial crises, but they have not said precisely what proposals they will bring forward to deal with the impediments to effective action that the Governor of the Bank of England identified in his evidence to the Treasury Select Committee of another place. They have issued a vacuous consultation on depositor protection, but have not yet made proposals that Parliament can progress.
	This Statement also takes us for the first time to the N-word: nationalisation. We regard nationalisation as a signal of the complete failure of the Government's handling of Northern Rock. The Government have borrowed the Liberal Democrats' idea of "temporary public ownership" as if that is something different from nationalisation, and that it is something which can be arranged to order. If the combined efforts of all those involved to date have failed to come up with a solution which keeps Northern Rock in the private sector, what hope is there of a crippled nationalised business being returned to the private sector on a successful and timely basis? The history of public ownership is not a good one. The fact is that nationalised industries have destroyed value. Can the Minister tell us what makes the Government believe that, under their control, nationalisation would be both temporary and not value-destroying? We simply do not believe that they can achieve that.
	I have asked the Minister a number of detailed questions, but I am well aware that the likelihood of him answering them all is low. I am sure that he will try to answer them all, but I hope that he will make a commitment to respond in writing to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate with those that he fails to answer completely.

Lord Newby: My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. When the Minister last made a Statement on Northern Rock a couple of months ago, we argued that the private sector solution which the Government were then pursuing was unobtainable. Since then, events have proved us right.
	First, the two consortia bidding to take over the bank conspicuously failed to raise the cash which they were happily reassuring everyone they could relatively easily do. Then, in order to give them a little help, the Government appointed Goldman Sachs to take the begging bowl round the world on their behalf to try to raise the cash for the two consortia, which by this time were sitting pathetically on the sideline. Goldman Sachs has been round the world and its begging bowl remains empty. That is why we have today's Statement.
	What we have has been described by some people as a public/private partnership and by others as a partial nationalisation. The truth is that we have a nationalisation of the risk and a privatisation of the profits. The original proposals were that the bidding consortia would raise £15 billion up front to repay part of the debt that the Bank of England had already made available to Northern Rock. It is now clear that they will not have to repay a penny up front. This demonstrates the folly of the Government's earlier position, which was maintained for a number of months against all the evidence. It was always clear to most commentators in the City and to many people in your Lordships' House that the ability of the two consortia that were left standing two months ago to raise the billions of pounds they claimed was very small, and so it has proved.
	As the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, the Statement is remarkably vague as to figures. Indeed, not a single figure is mentioned in the entire Statement except for two dates on which future action is planned. We know that any decision about the future of Northern Rock will be delayed by a further four to six weeks, during which time the market, particularly the housing market, is likely to fall further, and the costs of having dithered on Northern Rock will have increased yet again.
	The noble Baroness referred to the terms sheet being available shortly. Unless I am mistaken, anyone wishing to put in a bid on the revised basis has a fortnight in which to do so. So if the terms sheet is not available today, a day or two will make a huge difference to the ability of anyone to make an informed bid. I therefore repeat the noble Baroness's question about what, in the context of the announcement, "shortly" means.
	Given that the Government are single-handedly keeping Northern Rock afloat, it would seem logical that they should reap any benefits of turning the company round. They say in the Statement that they intend to take some of the up-side that might accrue if the bank has a successful future, but it is completely unclear how much of the profit the Government intend to benefit from. Is the Financial Times right, for example, in saying that the Government's equity stake will be no more than 5 to 10 per cent? Such a figure would obviously leave 90 to 95 per cent to a private buyer. What is the logic in those figures? Given that the Government are the only ones keeping this institution going, that seems a completely unacceptable ratio.
	On shares of profit, can the Minister be clearer about the future of the Northern Rock Foundation? The Statement contains the wonderful phrase:
	"We would also address the future of the Northern Rock Foundation".
	That is completely meaningless. What does it mean? What is the point of putting into a Statement something which is so vacuous that no one in the north-east can take any comfort from it? Talking of the north-east, the Statement is completely silent on the Government's thoughts about the future of the Northern Rock workforce.
	Do the Government agree with the BBC's political correspondent who said today that Richard Branson was behaving like the cat who got the cream? Could we be clear about exactly what he and the other consortium are currently offering in order to take over Northern Rock? Is it the case that they are both proposing to take over a bank with assets allegedly worth £100 billion for an investment either in cash or in kind of no more than £250 million—one-400th of the value of the assets they would acquire? If those figures are even broadly right, how can the Government justify that?
	Noble Lords will be aware that equity markets today have seen heavy losses around the world and glum faces among investors. Two investors, however, have a happy smile across their face. They are the hedge funds who bet that the Government would cave in and do something like this. In the mean time, taxpayers, not least those in the north-east, have been taken for an extremely expensive ride.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords for their contributions. I give an undertaking to respond to those questions I am not able to cover in the limited time available, save for those which I am going to exclude because of their commercial sensitivity. A great deal of this obviously obtains within that framework. Contrary to the contentions by both opposition spokespersons, it will be recognised that the Government are involved in the very challenging and interesting process of drawing up the specifications and terms to be met. The Government have been quite clear on their principles right from the beginning and they intend to fulfil them. However, the terms under which the guarantees will be met by any new owner of the bank and the arrangements under which they obtain cannot at this stage be put into the public arena, as noble Lords opposite would expect were they to give this a moment's reflection.
	I am not sure the noble Baroness bothers about detail a great deal. Yet again the Conservative Opposition trot out this canard that Lloyds TSB made a clearly defined offer on how to solve this problem in the autumn of last year and that the Government prevaricated or did not see fit to take immediate action on that proposal, as if they have clearly documented proof of the nature of this bid and of how substantial this bid was. I give way to the noble Baroness.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I would not like the Minister to get carried away on this subject. I merely quoted the Governor of the Bank of England in relation to the potential Lloyds TSB transaction. Perhaps he did not listen carefully.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, all I am emphasising is that the Government are criticised frequently for not having taken up this option when the governor indicated in very reserved terms the nature of the proposal. It was never a fully fledged bid and is merely, as I have indicated, a canard such as the Official Opposition are prone to display whenever these Statements are made and in all Questions on these areas without there being any real substance to their position.
	The bank has to be viable for the future. That is the basis of the negotiations and the drawing-up of the terms for the bank, but there are very clear principles that what must be proposed is a safeguard for public money. It will be recognised that the Government are working towards a solution in which the repayment of the Bank of England loan would begin forthwith after the new arrangements were in place, if they were successfully established. That solution would mean that the public had a stake in the developing equity if the bank was successful while, if the bank ran into serious trouble, as a private sector bank it would expect that the private investors would take first risk. If we did not do that we would be open to the challenge, which has emerged from the Liberal Benches in the past, that what is being constructed is an automatic underwriting by the public purse of gains that the private sector will take, and which will be of no value to the public at all. That is exactly the issue we are seeking to resolve.
	The noble Baroness suggested that very little has been achieved, but it will be appreciated that the Government are working to the timetable that we established in the autumn. We expect the process to produce bids by 4 February, which will then be subjected to the clear criteria that the Government are establishing. We will be in time to meet the other signal obligation under which the Government are operating. That other time constraint is that there is a defined time period in which state aid to the private sector is available. That period runs out for this process on 16 March, and the Government are working towards obtaining solutions to these issues and a successful bid, should it prove to be so, well within that timeframe.
	The noble Lord, Lord Newby, suggests that precious little has been achieved. He referred to the Goldman Sachs exercise as a begging bowl that is devoid of any product. He will recognise that the arrangements being proposed are dependent upon the potential sale of bonds that will be created to underpin the position of the bank, and a great deal of work has been necessary in order to establish the viability of that potential solution. It will depend on whether the private sector produces bids that meet our other criteria in order that it can act on this basis. Far from the Government standing idly by, we have carried out the necessary preparation over these past two months to ensure the viability of the bids as well as the clarity of the terms on which any bid needs to be established.
	The noble Lord also suggested that any reference to the Northern Rock Foundation was vacuous. We would have been subjected to the most intense criticism if we had left the foundation out altogether. We make it clear that we expect the issue of the foundation to play a part in the negotiations. At this stage—and I do not think that the House, in all its fairness, would expect anything else—we cannot give detailed answers about the basis upon which negotiations will take place with two private bidders in the field, with the possibility that the bank itself might make a bid for its management for the future and other bids potentially coming in. It would be ludicrous to expect the Government to spell all that out in great detail now. However, we are making clear the exact principles on which we propose to consider the bids that must be submitted by 4 February. I hope the House will recognise that that is as much as any reasonable Government could do in these circumstances.

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, is it not clear that the Tory Opposition are absolutely bankrupt of any positive ideas? The statement we heard from the noble Baroness represented that very clearly. Since, as I understand it, the European Commission has to approve either a private transaction or nationalisation, when do the Government hope to be able to make the appropriate application—on or before 17 March?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for making explicit that which the whole House will have realised. It is easy for the Official Opposition to criticise the Government's constructive approach to what we all recognise is a fundamentally difficult problem that is very significant in terms of the financial structure without having the slightest idea of how the problem should be solved, apart from time to time indulging in red herrings which mean nothing in terms of a real solution.
	My noble friend is also right to emphasise, as I sought to make clear earlier, that the Government are working against tight time constraints. We need to meet the deadline of the middle of March as far as the European Commission is concerned. The plans for the consideration and processing of the bids are governed by that requirement.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, right at the beginning of this sad tale, the Governor of the Bank of England stressed the importance of moral hazard and emphasised that if the bank were bailed out, there was a danger that others would expect the same treatment in the future. What do the Government think the present situation is doing for maintaining financial stability in the light of the view which the Governor of the Bank of England originally expressed?
	The people who have really gained are clearly Northern Rock's directors and board. The Government now seem almost to excuse them, saying that it was all a problem of global turbulence. But that has not been true of any other bank. Other banks have taken losses but they have not had to ask for government aid on such a scale. Right at the beginning, after the Bank of England had bailed it out, Northern Rock was considering issuing a dividend. On top of that, as has been pointed out repeatedly, it has continued making loans of 100 per cent of the value of a property and adding more and more to the burden to which the Government are exposed.
	Can the Minister tell us exactly what is proposed in the plan which he has put forward? The Government are saying that the loan book is good but that they cannot do anything with it unless there is a government guarantee. In effect, the Government seem to be giving a guarantee which enables them to issue gilt-edged securities—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—and hoping that they then get paid back out of the gilt-edged securities which they themselves have issued. Is that right or is it not?
	Can the Minister tell us what the rate of interest will be on the bonds which it is proposed to issue? Will it be the same as on gilt-edged, will it be more or will it be less? That is the reality of the situation. This is in no sense a private-sector solution. It is a government solution, backed by the Government and their credibility. A most extraordinary paragraph in the document issued by the Government says that the proposal would have the potential to ensure that the loan was paid up and the Government got their money back upfront and as soon as the funds were available. Is that really true? If they manage to float off the loan book in the way described, will the Government get their money back, upfront, as soon as the funds are available?

Lord Davies of Oldham: A great deal of the noble Lord's challenge revolves around where the moral hazard is and whether there are any constraints on how this bank operates in the future? On the moral hazard, one issue that was abundantly clear to the nation was the sight of investors queuing outside a bank. That represented a distinct threat not just to Northern Rock, but to banks that could and would be signalling difficulties. After all, we all recognise, as the noble Lord has said, that the exposure to sub-prime lending across the world has caused a great deal of writing down of bank assets in these past few months.
	The danger would be that the public would see their investment in banks that were perfectly safe and secure—and could meet their obligations—but which, nevertheless, could suffer very considerable damage from the contagion of a run upon them, in the classic way of investors seeking to take out their money. That emblem was clear from the moment that the Northern Rock crisis broke. If there is one achievement which clearly exonerates the Government, it is that they put a stop to that position. We made it quite clear that investors are safe and intend to ensure that they are.
	Having said that, does that mean that those managing the banks can carry on with reckless conduct? No, my Lords, on two grounds—one is that it will be clear that the terms on which the bank will operate with government guarantee in future will put severe constraints on their ability to act; for instance, the declaration of a dividend, to which, I think, the noble Lord referred.
	The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, also made reference to—and, again, I am obliged to say—a somewhat dated canard in these issues. I think the noble Lord, Lord Newby, brought it up first and can one think of a more self-respecting citizen than the noble Lord? The noble Lord said, "Isn't it outrageous that the bank came to me and suggested that it was prepared to offer me something above the level of property?". Well, of course it did. I have not the slightest doubt that the noble Lord has other assets, although not privy to his personal affairs. He is bound to be a better credit risk than the classic sub-prime borrower whom the bank was being asked to avoid.

Lord Newby: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's assessment of my character. However, I ought to point out, for the record, that Northern Rock made no inquiry into my other assets. I would have been extremely surprised if it had done.

Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Lord may also recognise—I am not sure how the approach came to him—that it is not beyond the wit of organisations to look at postcodes and existing housing and to work out whether the individual fits into the sub-prime category of being maximum risk or that of the hugely reputable noble Lord, Lord Newby, to whom I, let alone the bank, would be prepared to lend 125 per cent against certain assets.
	Therefore, it will not do to suggest that the bank has been acting recklessly since the crisis developed. The bank is all too well aware of the intense scrutiny of its operations by both the FSA and the Bank of England—to say nothing of the Treasury. I insist that the arrangements obtaining for the bank's operation in future will make it clear that it will have to operate within procedures that are satisfactory to the Government.
	I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins—will the bank be able to act in a reckless way, the moral hazard having been taken away by government action? The answer is no. I want to assure the House that the terms on which the agreement will be drawn up and on which bidders will bid will make it quite clear that those who are directing the bank will be subject to governance over the way in which they conduct certain aspects of their activity.

Lord Dearing: My Lords—

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords—

Lord Dearing: My Lords, we have not yet heard from these Benches.

Lord Bach: My Lords, we can hear from the Cross-Bencher and the Liberal Democrat.

Lord Dearing: My Lords, the opposition parties are right to hold the Government powerfully to account and ask penetrating questions about what is intended. But when I look at the situation and try to think of a better hole to go to, whatever the reason we are in it, I cannot. However, administration followed by a fire sale—no. As for temporary nationalisation then denationalisation, as someone who was responsible for nationalising an industry—possibly the last major one to be nationalised, the aircraft and shipbuilding industry—I cannot think of anything more troublesome, costly and time-consuming, and less likely to result in the effective management of the business. Those who are temporarily in charge will not feel able to take decisions that are needed lest it is contrary to their ability to sell the thing later and those who come in have entirely different ideas. I have seen this happen to the steel industry. It is not the best way.

Noble Lords: Question!

Lord Dearing: My Lords, I would like to ask the Government more. Others have made Statements. I said to the Minister in a corridor discussion after the announcement on 19 November that if the Government are going to do this, they should share in the benefits, and they have done so. I would like the Government to say more about the scale of their equity interest in the current company to justify the high risk that they are taking.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for introducing a note of clear realism into the options available. He has identified why the Government are pursuing this strategy. On the extent to which the Government, having produced such guarantees, will be able to reap rewards in the future, of course that is the basis for the discussions that will go on with regard to the bids. It will be made quite clear that the Government will have a share in the equity, which will enable them to gain from any potential success of the bank in the future.

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I have three quick questions—one on fees, one on the treatment of the national account and one on the term sheet. Starting with the term sheet, I did not hear the Minister give an answer to the pertinent question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, about whether the term sheet will be available. I can confirm from these Benches that we are very interested. Indeed, the more I think about it, the more I fancy having a whip round with a few of my friends in the City, raising a couple of hundred million and having a go. It is very important that this term sheet is made immediately available to any interested bidders. Otherwise, Mr Brown's mate Richard Branson is getting a clear run. It is very important that it is made available.
	On the national accounts, the Statement stated:
	"Any liabilities classifieds to the public sector would be temporary".
	What is the definition of "temporary" for this purpose?
	Finally, on fees, Goldman Sachs points out that it is acting as financial adviser to the members of the tripartite authority only and is not responsible for anyone else. Clearly, the taxpayer will be stung with its fees. How much has it run up so far? What is the Government's current estimate? It is there any cap? What is the total cost of Slaughter and May's fees and the other professional advisers? If the Minister does not know, would he please write to me by the end of this week?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I will write to the noble Lord. I have additional information, but he should not hold out too much hope that I have a great deal that I am prepared to see in the public arena as early as that. The term sheet will certainly be produced in very short order. After all, as the whole House will appreciate, our bidders need to know the terms on which they can bid. That is different from saying that this should necessarily be fully in the public domain. After all, these negotiations will continue. The noble Lord will recognise our reservations about putting that into the public domain at such a sensitive time, given also the shortness of time in which we are operating. We expect these bids to be under consideration from 4 February onwards.
	On the national accounts, we looked very carefully at the definition of what appeared on the public accounts balance sheet; it is for the Office for National Statistics to reach judgments on these matters. The Government's intention is that the crucial areas of support should be reduced as rapidly as possible. When I say temporary, I cannot put a particular date on that. On Goldman Sachs and its fees, the noble Lord cannot expect that to be made public at this stage, but no doubt all these things will be public in due course.

Lord Desai: My Lords, the Government are to be congratulated on having protected the depositors of Northern Rock. Given the fragility of the financial markets, and given that Citibank, Merrill Lynch and various others have made huge losses, it is not surprising that Northern Rock was in the same boat. Will my noble friend assure me that depositors' interests will be given priority, and that the shareholders who have taken a punt on Northern Rock should not be treated at all kindly, because the first interest must always be depositors, and financial stability the second?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend; he has accurately defined the exact principles on which the Government intend to act. The initial action was the decision to guarantee all investors in the bank when the crisis first broke. Shareholders have their role to play and their interests should be looked at, but it is quite clear, as I have indicated, that the guarantee to investors must remain a constant, absolutely fundamental, basis of the arrangements. Secondly, the taxpayers' interests need to be safeguarded. As the noble Lord will appreciate, the position of the shareholders comes third, after those two considerations.

Lord Stewartby: My Lords, the noble Lord helpfully made some comments about the Lloyds TSB proposals of a few months back. As he correctly says, these were not fully worked out proposals. The impression that was gained in public was that the shutters had suddenly come down on Lloyds' ideas and that no attempt was made by the Chancellor to follow them through. Those proposals, if implemented in accordance with what was known about them, would have meant a much smaller sum of taxpayers' money being put at risk, and would have tidied up the situation much more swiftly. They would also have avoided a great deal of the damage that has been done to the reputation of the City of London.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord has accurately identified the potential benefits of the proposal. The problem that faced the Government was that the proposal was not worked through fully enough for it to be a realistic runner. These were not circumstances where the Government were careless of the need to find an early solution; that is exactly what the Government sought to do in those dire days last autumn. As I indicated to the House earlier, I am afraid that Lloyds' proposal simply did not meet the Government's fundamental requirements at that time.

Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister about an additional point. There are many additional points that I would ask about, because the Statement has not been prepared or drafted with the usual excellence that one would have expected of a document coming out of Her Majesty's Treasury. Although I have been a banker for some 34 years, I had great difficulty in understanding many paragraphs in the Statement; indeed, I am certain that it means something quite different from what it actually says.
	The Statement says that,
	"in the current circumstances, to attract a wide range of investors on acceptable terms that protect the public interest, a guarantee is necessary".
	How can a public guarantee protect the public interest?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Viscount will recognise the extent to which Northern Rock has been supported by the Bank of England loan and by government guarantee. That clearly safeguards the public interest; if Northern Rock had not been offered any form of support at all, the fundamental principle, as far as investors in Northern Rock are concerned, is that they would have been at grave risk of losing a great deal of their money and the implications for the financial system more widely is that instead of there being a controlled degree of financial instability, we would have increased it. It is easier now to suggest that that gain can be discounted, but the noble Viscount will recall the circumstance we were all in last Autumn and why it was necessary to prevent a run on banks that would have destabilised the financial system in a cruel way.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 9.25 pm.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	[The Sitting was suspended from 9.22 to 9.25 pm.]

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

Further consideration of amendments on Report resumed on Clause 14.

Lord Brougham and Vaux: My Lords, there was a discrepancy in the Division on Amendment No. 108A. The number voting not-content was 164, not 165 as announced.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: moved Amendment No. 111:
	Clause 14, page 9, line 14, at end insert—
	"( ) In subsection (5) after the words "as a result of treatment" insert the words "including, in the case of a woman proposed to be treated with donated gametes or embryos, the need for that child to be told about his or her origins"."

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I hope that this will be rather less controversial than the last amendment we considered about the need for a father, or the alternative words. We are addressing here the question of donor-conceived people.
	There is widespread agreement—it was apparent in the Select Committee and in Committee in this House—that it is highly desirable that a donor-conceived person be told of his or her biological origins at the earliest stage at which they can be expected to understand the situation. We spelled this out in the Joint Committee. I will not waste the time of the House by reading out the words because the report says just that. I was gratified that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, made the same point on the third day of the Committee.
	In Committee, we canvassed the number of problems facing donor-conceived children, of which without any doubt the most serious is when they discover, perhaps at a late age, that their social father is not their biological father. We had some poignant evidence in Committee from people who had found themselves in that position. I should add that this amendment is not concerned with the question of putting information on birth certificates. I have tabled another amendment, Amendment No. 146—I am not sure we shall reach it today, so we will deal with that later.
	Amendment No. 111 seeks to include in Section 13(5) of the 1990 Act, among the conditions of licences for treatment, the words,
	"including, in the case of a woman proposed to be treated with donated gametes or embryos, the need for that child to be told about his or her origins".
	My aim is to put this in the Bill. It is regarded by all the witnesses we saw in the Joint Committee and by many people who took part in the earlier stages of the Bill as being so important that it has to be drawn to the attention of prospective parents who are considering having treatment with donated gametes. I entirely accept the importance of counselling—and there are other amendments in this group about counselling—but it cannot be anywhere more important than in the field of a putative donor conception. The amendment would ensure that this was written into the terms of the licence and it would therefore be bound to be at the forefront of the authority's and clinicians' minds.
	Also in this group is Amendment No. 130, which provides what I might call an additional safeguard by requiring that the guidance is in the code of practice maintained by the authority under Section 25 of the 1990 Act. Therefore, I am looking at taking a two-pronged approach to this matter: first, that the guidance should be in the Bill and, secondly, that it should be in the code.
	I shall certainly want to listen to the arguments on the other amendments in this group and at the end perhaps I shall be able to draw a conclusion as to whether I really need to press Amendment No. 111. However, that it is important I have absolutely no doubt at all, and I hope that the whole House will agree with that. The question is: how do we deal with it? Do we write it into the Bill or put it into the code or, as I should like, both? I beg to move.

Baroness Warnock: My Lords, I strongly agree with the amendment but I am not absolutely convinced that the wording needs to go into the Bill. However, it seems to me that it must go into the code because, if we are serious about the welfare or the good of the child being the most important consideration in offering treatment to women or couples who want it, we must try to ensure that children are not brought up under a misconception about their genetic parenthood. That is one of the most obvious cases of immoral treatment of a child, and it can be embarked on only by parents who are thinking more of themselves than of the good of the child.
	Nearly all people who adopt children nowadays tell their children at a very early stage that they are adopted. I think that we should take on that model for the treatment of children born by donation and not concentrate on confidentiality or the wishes of the parents. In this case, it is very important to assert as strongly as possible that the child's interests come first. There is no doubt whatever about the damage that can be done to children either if they accidentally find out that their social father is not their biological father or if circumstances arise where they have to be told. They may take it very hard, whereas they can—with difficulty, I agree, because it is a difficult subject to explain to a child—be brought up in the knowledge that their biological father is not their social father. Therefore, I strongly support the amendment, even if in the end the advice appears not in the Bill but only in the code, although I should prefer to have both.

Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, perhaps I may comment on what the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, has just said regarding whether something should be in the Bill or in the guidance. I suppose I am influenced by the fact that I am a lawyer and therefore my primary source of authority is the enactment of Parliament. For me, it would be very important to include these words in the Bill so that everyone could walk into a public library, ask to see the Act and see it stated as a very clear principle. It depends how one regards it but I see it as a highly important principle. I should not be at all against repeating it in the guidance, but it should be in the Bill.

The Lord Bishop of Winchester: My Lords, I warmly support the noble Lord. If I am able to be here at the next round of this Report stage, I shall also support him and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, on the question of birth certificates.
	I particularly want to speak at this point because I have been very moved by some material that I, and perhaps other noble Lords, have received. It is the kind of material that the noble Lord spoke about as having seen in the committee. A young man wrote to me asking whether I wanted him to send me a paper of his, and I said, "If you would like to do so, please do". I received four or five very striking pages from somebody who is part of an organisation called the International Donor Offspring Alliance. He is a postgraduate student in Cambridge. The story he tells is of being brought up by what he calls his "raising parents", for whom he is full of respect. But now in his mid-20s, he feels that he has been dogged by his ignorance of his father. He has tried website after website, but has not succeeded in finding him, and has ended up exhibiting himself, as it were, on a website in case his father sees his picture and recognises himself in him. He describes growing up not knowing whether he is like his father, and not knowing his real grandparents, nor they him.
	There are lots of such stories. I shall not go on, but they underline the great importance of the noble Lord's amendment, and the importance of clarity on the birth certificate so that someone is not only told about his real parentage but has every possibility of finding them rather than the arrangements that exist at present. I hope that we can support the noble Lord's amendment.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 129, which is in this group. All the amendments have the fundamental principle behind them of being open and honest with the child. There is nothing more devastating for children than to discover that their parents have lied to them. The difficulty is that parents do not know how to begin the conversation. In a well meaning way, they think that if they put it off until the child is more mature and can cope, somehow that will be better, but the converse is true. There is good evidence that if you start communicating with children before they develop speech and language, and they know either that they are adopted or that there is something in their background—donor conceived, or whatever, or that there is some family secret—they grow up with it. It is normal to them; it is internalised and they are okay. When they are brought up believing that the world consists of one construct and then somebody says that they have something to tell them, all of those foundations of their lives are taken away.
	It is that principle behind the amendment, which stands in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, myself, and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. It is essential to reinforce the principle of honesty in all that we do, particularly when medical technology is used to intervene in what could be called processes of nature. I am worried that if we do not have something on the face of the Bill, it could slip in priority in clinical services, which are somewhat hard-pressed. There is merit in having a requirement in the Bill that people need to know how to give information. The government amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Darzi of Denham, does that. I realise that it has been drafted in that way. I hope, therefore, that the guidance that goes with the amendment will really stress the need for parents to be given the skills, tools and guidance so that they can update how to give information as the child grows up. It should not be one-off information at the time they attend the clinic, but they should be able to access age-specific and age-relevant information, which will match the child's development, so that some of the traumas of which we have heard can be avoided in future.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. It is a thoughtful and constructive attempt to resolve an issue, which many of us have grappled with, in Committee and outside it, with the Minister. My noble friend Lady Warnock put it well—she did so in Committee as well—when she said that we should never try to conceal from someone the truth of their identity. Indeed, it is a less loving thing to conceal identity. If eventually, through DNA testing or in other ways, someone discovers that they have been lied to, that stores many more problems further up the track.
	In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, quite rightly raised the danger of issues such as consanguinity and incest. I shared with the House the true story of twins who were separated and adopted at birth, only to meet later in life and marry. This took place some years ago, and I know that some dismissed it as a one-in-a-million coincidence, unlikely ever to be repeated. There may be truth in that, but it would be a mistake not to look at some of the issues that a case of that kind raises. The noble Lord knows, because I have shared some of the correspondence with him, that, inevitably, others have written to tell me of other cases as well.
	Alastair Bissett-Johnson, Emeritus Professor of Law at Dundee University, has given me permission to use his name and has had 43 years of teaching family law. He told me how a young person came into local authority care, with parental rights being vested in the local authority. One such parental right was that of consent to the marriage of a person in their care between 16 and 18 years of age. The social worker involved saw that one of the young people was adopted, noticed a striking similarity and discovered that the proposed spouse had also been adopted. Further investigation revealed that they were siblings. No consent to the marriage took place and the couple were informed of the circumstances. How much better it would have been if all concerned had known of their biological relationship from the outset.
	I have also received several heart-breaking letters from people who were denied knowledge of their antecedents with shocking consequences for their health. One lady who is being treated for ovarian cancer and who knows nothing of her genetic history told me that she feels it scandalous that she has no family medical records. She pleads for the medical records of biological parents to be kept on a central database. Someone else wrote to say:
	"Approximately five years ago, I was diagnosed with ADPKD—autosomal dominant polycystic kidney disease. This disease is genetically inherited. By having knowledge of my family history and perhaps interacting with my relatives, we may be able to help each other out and increase our lifespans. Additionally, this information may help my children and future generations".
	I have also received a letter about a case from a member of another place, Mr John Hemming MP. He says:
	"I am fearful that in this individual case, and many others besides, proper medical treatment is not possible, and preventative care is being overlooked".
	Clearly, this leaves many children at significant risk.
	With many children now conceived by in vitro fertilisation, those issues have been magnified. Every child, whether born naturally or by IVF, should have a true record of their identity. One only needs to look at websites such as the donor sibling registry to see why this matters. That database enables parents to make contact with the anonymous donors who supplied half of the genes of their offspring. Children can search for their unknown genetic parents, and families can make contact with genetic half-siblings with a donor in common. Thousands of people have registered on that site looking for sperm donors, parents and for the children they helped to conceive. That is done by batch numbers, and the site states that the largest match so far has been between 26 half-siblings to a single donor, who is also listed.
	One man, a Californian artist, identified by batch 401, is father to 25 babies by 18 different women. In the United States, one donor, who had been providing sperm for over 15 years, estimated that he could have fathered 432 children.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's support, yet the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, told us in Committee that the rule of the HFEA is that no man shall ever be allowed to be a donor for more than 10 children.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I was just coming to that point. I am grateful to the noble Lord because it is relevant. I am glad that we do not permit so many babies to be born, as happens in the United States. Yet the noble Lord will see from the front page of yesterday's Sunday Times that a young woman has become the record surrogate, having herself had eight babies under the procedure. The noble Lord is right that the HFEA says that a maximum of 10 may be permitted in Britain, but that is a significant number of siblings, half-siblings and cousins. When the Minister comes to reply, perhaps he can tell us whether the number 10 refers to successful treatment cycles or to children. Given that the HFEA states that one in four IVF births is multiple, that is highly germane.
	Since sperm donations would probably be at the same IVF clinic, or at least in the same city, and possibly all within a year or so—for example, in the case of a student at a university—there may well be a good chance that children born from those donations will grow up in the same city at around the same time, some of them possibly going to the same school or even being in the same year group. Without absolute knowledge of your genetic profile, the possibility of unwitting consanguineous or incestuous relationships is obvious.
	Three years ago, I pressed the Government to give children the right to know the identity of their biological parents. The donor anonymity that previously existed was lifted. I was grateful to the Government for that but, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said in Committee, that tells only half the story. We gave the right to inquire, but created no duty to tell. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child puts it well, stating that we must ensure that every child can preserve his or her identity.
	Let me conclude by citing one other person, who wrote to me to say:
	"There is more to identity too. A sense of identity is of crucial importance to a balanced wellbeing. I know, since I've only gained one in my 39th year, and it's changed my life profoundly. There was a sudden and profound seismic shift in my psyche. I became 'connected'. To spend your life not knowing who your mother and father were is a torture only those that have experienced it can fully understand".
	The amendment does not go as far as I—and others—would have liked to have gone. There was a thoughtful amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that we considered in Committee about in some way marking birth certificates. There have been amendments from the noble Earl, Lord Howe. At this stage in this discussion, I think that the amendment and the way charted forward by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is right, and I hope that the Government will give it a fair wind.

Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I should like to say just three sentences in support of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. If you are an adoptive parent and are being assessed, part of your assessment will involve how you will tell the child about its background. It seems extraordinary to me that we do not have exactly the same process for this group of children. We are saying that those children do not matter. In the Every Child Matters agenda, I hope that the Government will ensure that that group of children matter just as much as all the other groups. They are now the only group left out from having the right to the knowledge of their genetic inheritance.
	I am grateful that children will now have the right to know their parental identity. They also need to know their genetic identity.

Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I support the amendment and, looking at the time, will make two short points. First, not only should the child be told, the child should be told as soon as possible. That is crucial. It is therefore very important, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said, that there should be good counselling and good information given to parents of children in that situation as to how to tell the child. On the second point, I very respectfully agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, said: it should be written into the Bill, so that people will know openly. They will not necessarily see the code, but they will see the Bill.

Lord Patten: My Lords, I entirely follow the lead of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in his support for the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding. He is on to a very important point, which concerns basic human rights and takes us back to the point made about human rights in an earlier debate in your Lordships' House by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York. Denying children the right to know their natural father is wrong, if I can use such a fierce word. The absence of knowledge of the natural origins of a person's life can have profound consequences on an individual's emotional, social and spiritual development—here I use "spiritual" in its broadest sense, not just religious.
	The denial of any knowledge of a person's origin can have potentially devastating consequences for that individual, as some of your Lordships have pointed out in this short debate. Knowing one's own genealogy is a human right, and a very important one. Most people recognise that what we think of as a sense of place is very comforting. It is where they identify with. A sense of who you are and where you come from is very much more than just comforting; it is essential.
	I say to the Minister that it is totally wrong for the state to connive in a falsehood—and I know he does not wish to do so. Birth certificates must record the birth as far as it is possible. They must never encourage a deliberate falsehood by making provision for the registration of parents in a way not clear to their children. Birth certificates have the sole function of genetic history, not of saying who is carrying out the "parenting function", if that is what it might be called.
	Surely the Government cannot wish their own newly established body, the Statistics Board, which takes up its role on 1 April under the immensely distinguished chairmanship of Sir Michael Scholar—it is already in operation according to Parliamentary Answers—to connive in any falsehood. We are told by the Prime Minister that the new Statistics Board is there, quite rightly, to ensure the purity and high quality of our statistics. I am sure that there is not scintilla of difference among anyone in this House: we want high-quality statistics. The board cannot begin its new role in April by being asked to connive in something which is, on the face of it, a falsehood if full details are not recorded in birth certificates. Has the new Statistics Board been consulted, or will it be consulted on that critically important issue—a genealogical, historical and medical issue—for those whose records it is considering? I hope that the Minister will tell us, in answer to this debate, that it is not being asked to connive in a deliberate falsehood.
	I think knowing who you are is as important as knowing where you are and where you come from. It is a basic human right to know who you are—to know what your identity is—and it is an affront to a child, as many noble Lords have said, to deny that. It is abhorrent for the state, in its might, to conspire against children in their inherent weakness. That is an extremely important point. It is a matter of ensuring that the truth is told and freedom is protected in a way that only totalitarians—which I know this Government are not—would wish to deny.
	We heard a little earlier about the importance of daughters from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who is not currently in his place. I took a reality check with my own dear daughter, Mary-Claire, who is up at Cambridge reading theology, and explained the issues in front of the House tonight. She said, "Surely, Daddy, the most important thing is not the wishes of adults, but the human rights of the children". I thought your Lordships would be grateful to have her advice.

Lord Winston: My Lords, I must profess to a good deal of uneasiness about these amendments, and I am not pretending that I can offer a solution, but I hope that your Lordships' House will bear in mind some of the practical consequences of what we are talking about.
	As a practitioner running, at the time, a busy fertility clinic in Hammersmith, I think we invested in counselling more heavily than any other unit in the United Kingdom. Since then, one of our senior counsellors has been an adviser to the HFEA and is now a member of that authority. Therefore, our credentials for counselling are pretty impeccable. Certainly, as director, I took it very seriously and made certain that we invested in the salaries to ensure that every patient coming through for in vitro fertilisation could have extensive counselling if required, in particular when donor gametes were to be offered to a patient, something that we were very conscious about.
	Everyone has said tonight that it is important to be open with children, to be as honest as we can about their origins and explain to them as early as possible that they come from a donor parent of one or the other sort. The question here is how many parents decide to keep this matter a secret. My impression from following up on patients in the clinic—I admit that this is anecdotal and that I do not know of any solid research—is that, rather than seeing a decrease in the number of people who keep quiet, we have seen an increase in the number of men and women who want to keep the origin of their children secret. That cannot in any way be enforced in the clinic; it would be impossible.
	The consequence is that children may find out at the wrong time. I have seen that in several children, including one young man I am particularly concerned about, who is now a student at university. The children find out at the time of their parents' break-up, usually when they are young teenagers. That is probably the most damaging time. In the case of the young man—it has happened with other children as well—the father has said, "You're not my responsibility, and I am not your father anyway". That had a devastating effect on the young man, but I have seen the same in girls as well. That is a problem with sperm donation.
	Another problem that we have not considered is, I think, even more serious: egg donation. I do not know if there is an easy answer. As has been explained ad nauseam, when women run out of eggs, one of the most successful treatments in infertility practice today is that of offering donor eggs. In fact, donor eggs given to an early menopausal woman in her late 30s or early 40s carry an almost 50 per cent chance of resulting in a pregnancy. But what happens in reality, particularly in the private sector, is that, because it is difficult to get hold of donor eggs, women who are not wealthy and are perhaps somewhat dispossessed and have to pay for their in vitro fertilisation treatment opt to donate some eggs from the clutch of eggs taken during an in vitro fertilisation cycle, in return for which they get free treatment. The recipient of those eggs remains anonymous. There is no way back because the eggs have to be exposed immediately. As a consequence, some women end up donating eggs, their own in vitro fertilisation cycle fails, and the woman they have given their genetic material to has an embryo implanted and has a baby.
	Rightly or wrongly—I have views about it that are not relevant here—the HFEA has consistently sanctioned egg sharing of that sort. I am not sure that it is a wise decision, but that is what happens. However, the position is now made even more poignant with the loss of anonymity. Many women go through in vitro fertilisation treatment as poor patients. I have seen this, and indeed I wrote to a former Minister of health—not one of the current Front-Benchers in either House—to explain that I had just met a women who had had five treatments as a donor. The statistical probability was that she had at least two or three children of whom she was not aware. Imagine the problems for that woman, who was left infertile and has remained so, when 18 years later she is visited by a child of whom she had no knowledge. It is a very serious issue.
	The noble Lord, Lord Alton, was interesting about consanguinity and the risks of sperm donation. If it is bad technology, let us abandon it. However, this legislation increases the risk in some ways because the fact is that fewer men will be prepared to provide donor sperm because of the possible consequences of being traced later on. There is then a greater risk of consanguinity because there will be fewer sperm donors in the United Kingdom. A number of issues need to be teased out as we consider the legislation. I do not know the answers, but they have to be borne in mind during the passage of these amendments.

Baroness Barker: My Lords, at this late hour I simply wish to make a few important points, not least in order to restore some balance to the debate. I start, as I have in all my contributions on the Bill, by highlighting again the need for us to rely on solid evidence. Over the past few months, I have been concerned when individual cases have been cited, some in the press, which your Lordships have no way of verifying independently, emotive though those cases may be. It behoves your Lordships' House to look not only at the evidence base but at current practice before we legislate.
	I had not intended to talk about birth certificates—the issue is not before us in the amendments, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, will take us into further discussions about birth certificates next week—but, as the person who raised the matter of birth certificates in Committee, I, too, have received a great deal of communication about them. There is an equally emotive case to be made on behalf of people who do not wish there ever to be any mark on any birth certificate that identifies a person as being donor-conceived. We will have a fuller debate in time, but noble Lords should be aware of that.
	I wish to flag up two matters, one of which is the work of the Donor Conception Network. I have been involved in it, I have seen some of its work, and I invite noble Lords to take the easy action of clicking on to its website. There they will find not only guidance to prospective parents but guidance from existing donor fathers, donor mothers and same-sex couples about the importance of telling children at an early stage about their status and about all other aspects of the experience that they are likely to have and the things that they should consider as parents. So, even without the legislation, much work is already being done.
	Many of the debates so far on this matter have been based on some very old data. I looked at data from a research study that was published last year. Prospective parents, who had been approached via infertility counsellors in licensed clinics, were specifically asked whether, in view of the changes in the rules on anonymity, they would be more or less likely to tell children at an early stage and what were the issues around that. Two-thirds of the prospective parents said that they were more likely to tell children of their donor-conceived status. Interestingly, though, a tenth said that they would be less likely. That flags up the fact that, whatever law we may pass, in practice this is an extremely difficult matter on which to legislate. Why? Because families are different, their circumstances are different, and human nature varies.
	We should do two things: we should encourage the Government to continue to support all voluntary efforts such as the talking and telling courses that are being implemented by the Donor Conception Network for parents; and we should be mindful that counselling is a resource, and it costs. I can think of many examples across the whole spectrum of social policy where one would like counselling to be available. I urge one note of caution: people who have made the conscious decision to go to a licensed clinic for this treatment may not be the people most in need of counselling; they may be well aware of what they are letting themselves in for and what the issues are for any future children. So be aware that adding a cost to a treatment may well put off some people who, in all other respects, would be extremely good parents of whom we would otherwise approve.

Earl Howe: My Lords, it will not have escaped the Minister's notice that, with regard to the issue of principle that we are discussing—namely, the need to be open with the donor-conceived child—there is unanimity around the Chamber. I should like very briefly to add to the weight of that opinion. I begin by saying how very much I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Jenkin. As he and others have said, a number of us initially thought that it might be possible to devise a way of satisfying the child's right to know by ensuring that the child's birth certificate made clear in some way the fact of his birth status. It became apparent from the Government's response and from private discussions that however it is dressed up, this is not an idea that Ministers are willing to accept, mainly on human rights grounds. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister exactly why that is; there are a lot of people out there who are unclear and unsure about the precise arguments. I understand, of course, that a couple who have become parents through receipt of donor sperm believe strongly that they have a right to privacy and that it is no part of the state's function to interfere in their family life. However, it is at least highly questionable whether the rights of parents on that matter are of a comparable magnitude to those of donor-conceived children. I would maintain that they are not, which is why many of us have been trying so hard to find a way through the problem.
	In Committee I also argued that whenever a woman requests IVF treatment involving donor sperm or ova, she should receive mandatory counselling. At present the Bill merely specifies that the woman and her partner should be given an opportunity to receive such counselling. Disappointingly, that idea was kicked into touch by the Minister. It is, however, very welcome to see the government amendment to Clause 23, which appears to go part of the way at least towards that objective. I hope that I understand the amendment correctly and that it is the Government's intention to make it mandatory for anyone seeking treatment at a clinic to receive certain relevant information as part of the process of giving their informed consent. In other words, the woman and her partner would not only have to read and digest the information; they would need to assimilate and accept it. If that is right, it would certainly be a step forward. I thank the Minister for listening to the concerns I expressed in our earlier debate on the subject.
	However, I am going to sound a little like Oliver Twist because I do not think the amendment goes quite far enough, which is why I have tabled Amendment No. 129 as an amendment to it. This amendment specifies that included in the information received by people who request IVF treatment by donor, there needs to be a section making clear the critical importance of being open with the child about the circumstances of his conception and another section pointing the couple towards sources of advice designed to make it easier for them to approach the very sensitive process of actually breaking the news to the child. We have heard powerful contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, on that point. The key elements here are the absolute necessity of explaining why it matters so desperately to a donor-conceived child to be told the truth, what happens to the child if he is not told the truth but discovers it for himself by accident, and what is at stake in terms of the trust placed in the parents by the child—trust that will vanish for ever if the child finds out that he has been deceived. The parents have to be taken through all of this—that is the point. While I have to recognise the reality that counselling will not be made compulsory, I hope that the process of obtaining informed consent will encourage couples to ask for counselling. Parents need to understand that bringing up a donor-conceived child carries with it some particularly onerous responsibilities that should not be ducked. I hope the Minister will consider my amendment in a positive way.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I will address both the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and government Amendment No. 128.
	Much of the discussion we have had about the Bill has been about the importance of donor-conceived people being made aware of that fact. Several reasons have been discussed today, a critical one being to avoid the distress caused when a donor-conceived person finds out in an uncontrolled way at a later stage in life that the person they thought was their biological father is not. We want to avoid situations such as the one cited by the right reverend Prelate.
	The Government recognise the importance of ensuring that prospective parents understand how important it is that a child is told that they were donor-conceived. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, honesty is fundamental, and a child who is told at an early age will grow up with that knowledge and will be better informed, and there will be better family relationships. That is done by the parents telling them in the most effective and least distressing way. It is the Government's view that that is best achieved by education rather than enforcement.
	To that end, the Department of Health is working closely with the Donor Conception Network to support projects to encourage telling. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, I certainly recommend that your Lordships have a look at its website, which is rather good. We are funding the Telling and Talking project, which supports parents who have already told children about their donor conception. We are also funding a second project that will be working with prospective parents hoping to conceive using donor gametes. These projects, involving discussions and workshops, will be piloted and evaluated to assess the best way of communicating with parents and prospective parents and to give them the opportunity to feed back information. The preparation project will talk to parents about the process of donor conception, its implications and its particular responsibilities.
	The 1990 Act requires counselling to be available and relevant information, as is proper, to be provided by all licensed treatment clinics. It is a condition of all licences that a woman shall not be provided with treatment unless she and any person who is to be treated together with her have been given suitable opportunity to receive proper counselling and relevant information. Following discussions in Committee we have tabled Amendment No. 128, which strengthens provision in the Bill in respect of counselling and information, in addition to requiring that all patients be given the offer of counselling and provided with information. It also requires quite specifically that the HFEA produces in its code of practice guidance for the clinics about doing so. The noble Earl is quite right in his reading of our amendment. For example, where the treatment involves donated gametes, the code could specify that information relating to the importance of discussing this issue with the child from an early age was provided to prospective parents. In addition, we would also expect the guidance in the code of practice to relate to who provides the counselling and how it is offered.
	Amendment No. 129, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, takes that further. It adds to the government amendment by specifying that the information provided should make clear the importance of disclosing to any child born from treatment services the circumstances of their conception and to provide guidance designed to assist a person in making such a disclosure.
	Amendments Nos. 111 and 130, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, would try to ensure that people born as a result of donor conception were informed by amending the licence conditions that apply to clinics about the welfare of the child. Those amendments also seek to ensure that there is guidance on informing a child in the HFEA code of practice. We wholeheartedly agree that the code of practice should address this area, and it was with that in mind that the government amendment was tabled. The purpose of our amendment is to ensure that the HFEA can specify what information should be provided to patients.
	Let me answer a couple of questions that have been put during this short debate. The noble Lord, Lord Patten, asked if the Statistics Board had been consulted on birth certificates. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 ensures that donors are not regarded as the legal parents of children born as a result of assisted conception treatment. It provides that donors are not regarded as parents for any purpose and therefore would not be regarded as such for statistical purposes.
	The noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked for clarification on whether we meant 10 cycles or 10 children using donor sperm. The HFEA guidance states that donor sperm cannot be used by more than 10 families. A donor may state a lower number if he so wishes.
	The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked about birth certificates and compatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights. Any proposal to amend birth certificates in the way suggested would have to be considered on the individual facts. However, broadly speaking, the Government's view is that the human rights of donor-conceived children and their parents are likely to be engaged. Therefore, any interference by the state into this private realm would have to be proportionate and fully justified. It is our view that the interests of donor-conceived children in finding out about their genetic origins are best protected by a programme of information and education to support their parents in discussing this information with them.
	We accept in principle the intention of the amendments in this group. Indeed, we accept far more than that, and I would like to take away the three opposition amendments in the group. I can give noble Lords an assurance that I will come back on Third Reading with an amendment that takes into consideration the spirit of those three amendments. With that, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, before I withdraw the amendment, I should like to say how grateful I am for the widespread support that my amendments have attracted from all sides of the House. I think that we are all broadly agreed in principle. On the question of certificates—a number of Members raised this, including my noble friend on the Front Bench—I have tabled an amendment which provides what I hope will be an acceptable procedure whereby the HFEA will be able to maintain a continuing review of certificates. Like my noble friend, I accept that the Government are not going to provide for compulsory notification on birth certificates. That is quite right in my view. One of the organisations involved—the Donor Conception Network—is opposed to that at the present time. I do not want to anticipate the arguments on my later amendment, because it is even more complicated than the ones discussed in this short debate. This amendment is not about that.
	I am greatly encouraged by what the Minister said about the intention behind the Government's amendment. I am grateful for her assurances that she will consider, between now and Third Reading, whether some specific mention of donor conception should go into the code. Although many of us, such as the noble Lord, Lord Neill, and others, would like to see it in the Bill, if it is in the code and is sufficiently specific, one can feel that one has made a good deal of progress. With those words, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	House adjourned at 10.19 pm